Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Handyman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Fair enough. I just feel weird without one personally.

I'm definitely against a national ID, but I don't think that discussion is really in play here. Immigrants are already required to carry documentation of their right to be here, the AZ law just affirms that. It's not any new requirement.

Yes but what about people who aren't immigrants? I am guessing not every Latino person in Arizona crossed the border in their lifetime. See that is where things can get problematic. Bob can talk about how he doesnt worry because he wont be doing anything suspicious, but he also doesnt have to worry because no cop will think he is an illegal, unless Canada is invading Arizona

Where people have a problem is where unofans situation happens, but instead of "Bob" it is "Roberto", (American born citizen) and the officer sees him do something "suspicious" and asks for his papers. If Roberto is out for a stroll and happens to forget his state ID he could be in some trouble. As a citizen he should be protected from that. And dont tell me that cops wont just be random about it at times, we all know cops can be "randomly selective" when they decide who they are going to pull over in other scenarios so they could here as well.

I have no problem with the law as is. If it isnt abused there is no argument against it really. But if (and it is a hypothetical, and a highly unlikely one at that) it starts taking away the rights of legal citizens then it needs to be shown the door.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Yes but what about people who aren't immigrants? I am guessing not every Latino person in Arizona crossed the border in their lifetime. See that is where things can get problematic. Bob can talk about how he doesnt worry because he wont be doing anything suspicious, but he also doesnt have to worry because no cop will think he is an illegal, unless Canada is invading Arizona

Where people have a problem is where unofans situation happens, but instead of "Bob" it is "Roberto", (American born citizen) and the officer sees him do something "suspicious" and asks for his papers. If Roberto is out for a stroll and happens to forget his state ID he could be in some trouble. As a citizen he should be protected from that. And dont tell me that cops wont just be random about it at times, we all know cops can be "randomly selective" when they decide who they are going to pull over in other scenarios so they could here as well.

I have no problem with the law as is. If it isnt abused there is no argument against it really. But if (and it is a hypothetical, and a highly unlikely one at that) it starts taking away the rights of legal citizens then it needs to be shown the door.

Something that I think is getting lost in this is the fact that the Feds don't even need probable cause. They can just go up to anyone and ask for their papers. Whats to stop the Feds from questioning you while at the ice cream parlor. AZ's law is actually more mild than the federal law.

I'm not saying that its alright to harrass citizens, but there has to be some kind of balance possible.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Let's just say that during the course of my job I see the abuse of authority by officers if not regularly, then at least often enough that it no longer surprises me. So I'm not as confident in your assertion that they'll always act reasonably.

Also, the "if you're innocent, you've got nothing to worry about" line of reasoning means nothing to me when even a wrongful accusation is enough to ruin many a life.

Look, I'm on Arizona's side in principle in this debate. But I think the state has screwed the pooch in execution multiple times over.

This isn't run of the mill enforcement. These police officers are going to be under such intense scrutiny that the first time there's anything remotely resembling profiling, the ACLU and a whole slew of other folks will file lawsuits faster than you can say "porous border."

So if you don't have ID with you (and you're not doing anything illegal) and have to provide it later to show you're actually a citizen or here illegally it ruins your life? With that sort of fear, you shouldn't step out the front door each day.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Something that I think is getting lost in this is the fact that the Feds don't even need probable cause. They can just go up to anyone and ask for their papers. Whats to stop the Feds from questioning you while at the ice cream parlor. AZ's law is actually more mild than the federal law.

I'm not saying that its alright to harrass citizens, but there has to be some kind of balance possible.

See that is ridiculous, no one should have that kind of authority.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Something that I think is getting lost in this is the fact that the Feds don't even need probable cause. They can just go up to anyone and ask for their papers. Whats to stop the Feds from questioning you while at the ice cream parlor. AZ's law is actually more mild than the federal law.

I'm not saying that its alright to harrass citizens, but there has to be some kind of balance possible.

Because the feds are the paragon of how everything should be done. Just ask the residents of southern Arizona who are seeing their property overrun and taken over by drug lords. This whole thing stinks to high heaven of hypocrisy.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Yes but what about people who aren't immigrants? I am guessing not every Latino person in Arizona crossed the border in their lifetime. See that is where things can get problematic. Bob can talk about how he doesnt worry because he wont be doing anything suspicious, but he also doesnt have to worry because no cop will think he is an illegal, unless Canada is invading Arizona

Where people have a problem is where unofans situation happens, but instead of "Bob" it is "Roberto", (American born citizen) and the officer sees him do something "suspicious" and asks for his papers. If Roberto is out for a stroll and happens to forget his state ID he could be in some trouble. As a citizen he should be protected from that. And dont tell me that cops wont just be random about it at times, we all know cops can be "randomly selective" when they decide who they are going to pull over in other scenarios so they could here as well.

I have no problem with the law as is. If it isnt abused there is no argument against it really. But if (and it is a hypothetical, and a highly unlikely one at that) it starts taking away the rights of legal citizens then it needs to be shown the door.

Like you say, I think we have to see how it plays out. The way I read the law, it's not just something "suspicious" that gets Roberto in trouble in your scenario. It's something downright lawbreaking. In that case, he should be picked up either way, illegal or no. Maybe that won't be how it goes though, and then I do think the law has problems.

As for the National ID thing, are we forgetting the push by Republicans for a voter ID system. Now, that had it's pluses and minuses, but let's not pretend like R's have never ever been interested in an ID systen.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Yes but what about people who aren't immigrants? I am guessing not every Latino person in Arizona crossed the border in their lifetime. See that is where things can get problematic. Bob can talk about how he doesnt worry because he wont be doing anything suspicious, but he also doesnt have to worry because no cop will think he is an illegal, unless Canada is invading Arizona

Where people have a problem is where unofans situation happens, but instead of "Bob" it is "Roberto", (American born citizen) and the officer sees him do something "suspicious" and asks for his papers. If Roberto is out for a stroll and happens to forget his state ID he could be in some trouble. As a citizen he should be protected from that. And dont tell me that cops wont just be random about it at times, we all know cops can be "randomly selective" when they decide who they are going to pull over in other scenarios so they could here as well.

I have no problem with the law as is. If it isnt abused there is no argument against it really. But if (and it is a hypothetical, and a highly unlikely one at that) it starts taking away the rights of legal citizens then it needs to be shown the door.

I've actually gone through something like this myself. Not exactly the same, but a strong parrallel. I fly somewhat regularly or work and personal reasons, and as we all know, there was more emphasis on airport security thereafter (without getting into the effectiveness thereof). Well, I go to fly maybe a year later, and I'm called over to a separate counter and people are disappearing into the back room and coming back out without telling me anything. Turns out, there was a list of names of people of concern that Homeland Security or someone put together. And there turns out to be a Bob Gray on the list. And I find out that if there's a name on the list, they do an extra check on everyone in the country with that same name. So, for the next few years, every time I fly, I have to take an extra 15-30 minutes at the counter while they call in to make sure it's ok for me to fly. I remember reading a column in the Las Vegas paper by a guy with a real common name, and he had the same experience, and there were thousands of people with that same name all over the country that had the same name and all were put through the same process, even though there was nothing about them at all suspicious. Now, I could have flipped out, claiming I was mistreated for no reason. But, I figure the feds, even if in a rather blockheaded way, are trying to keep things safe, enforce the laws, do the right thing, etc. So I just plan some extra time in at the airport until a few years later they stopped doing it. I don't deserve the hassel, but life is too short to moan at every hassel that comes along.

We in this country are such incredible whiners, it's simply hard to believe. Some things in life are hassels, and sometimes we go through hassels we haven't brought on ourselves. Deal with it and get on with life instead of developing a victim complex. If I'm Hispanic, then maybe I make sure I have ID with me. A minor inconvenience, but hardly worth the shrill moaning we hear. And if I forget it on a rare occasion, and happen to get pulled over on rare occasion, and I have to get ID to authorities to document my status, well, I do so and things are cleared up and I move on with life. It's not that hard.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I've actually gone through something like this myself. Not exactly the same, but a strong parrallel. I fly somewhat regularly or work and personal reasons, and as we all know, there was more emphasis on airport security thereafter (without getting into the effectiveness thereof). Well, I go to fly maybe a year later, and I'm called over to a separate counter and people are disappearing into the back room and coming back out without telling me anything. Turns out, there was a list of names of people of concern that Homeland Security or someone put together. And there turns out to be a Bob Gray on the list. And I find out that if there's a name on the list, they do an extra check on everyone in the country with that same name. So, for the next few years, every time I fly, I have to take an extra 15-30 minutes at the counter while they call in to make sure it's ok for me to fly. I remember reading a column in the Las Vegas paper by a guy with a real common name, and he had the same experience, and there were thousands of people with that same name all over the country that had the same name and all were put through the same process, even though there was nothing about them at all suspicious. Now, I could have flipped out, claiming I was mistreated for no reason. But, I figure the feds, even if in a rather blockheaded way, are trying to keep things safe, enforce the laws, do the right thing, etc. So I just plan some extra time in at the airport until a few years later they stopped doing it. I don't deserve the hassel, but life is too short to moan at every hassel that comes along.

Life's also too short to spend an extra 30 minutes at the airport on top of the already ridiculous 1-2 hours ahead of time you need to get there.

After the first time that happened, I'd be writing letters and being a pain in the *** until the red tape was cut through and something got fixed. It's absolutely asinine to subject everyone named Bob Gray or John Smith or whatever to extra security because some terrorist used it as an alias however many years ago. If they can't pinpoint it more than that, then they don't have reasonable suspicion in my mind to keep doing it.

I guess we have a difference of opinion on this one too. I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at the airport, but I sure as hell wouldn't stand idly by while this continues to happen year-after-year.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I guess we have a difference of opinion on this one too. I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at the airport, but I sure as hell wouldn't stand idly by while this continues to happen year-after-year.

So you think you can change how the federal government operates? I admire your optimism, if not your realism.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Right, one persons minor inconvenience is another persons pain in the butt. Me, I tend to overlook a lot of hassles as long as in the end things are made right, but that doesnt mean EVERYONE sees it that way or should.

Like I said, it is problematic and could cheese people off quite easily.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

As for the National ID thing, are we forgetting the push by Republicans for a voter ID system. Now, that had it's pluses and minuses, but let's not pretend like R's have never ever been interested in an ID systen.

Where does it stop, though, if the party changes course on it? I mean, there are plenty of Republicans who try to paint Democrats as the party of slavery and segregation, since in the past, the party has stood for both of those, but it's not part of the current party's position, obviously.

Yes but what about people who aren't immigrants? I am guessing not every Latino person in Arizona crossed the border in their lifetime. See that is where things can get problematic. Bob can talk about how he doesnt worry because he wont be doing anything suspicious, but he also doesnt have to worry because no cop will think he is an illegal, unless Canada is invading Arizona

At the same time, what fear does a citizen have of being deported? Is there some expectation that a person who has put themselves in a position to be suspected as a possible illegal immigrant due to their actions who is in fact an American citizen will not have the opportunity to at some point during the process clear their name? Or do you expect ICE (since the state plans to turn them over to ICE, they can't unilaterally deport anyone) to summarily deport people? And to where? If they haven't been identified, you don't just send them to Mexico, not all illegal immigrants are from Mexico. (you know, unless you're a real racist.)

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So you think you can change how the federal government operates? I admire your optimism, if not your realism.

No, but I'm not exactly going to make it easy on them, either. If there's one thing law school teaches you, it's how to read regulations and exploit them.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Right, one persons minor inconvenience is another persons pain in the butt. Me, I tend to overlook a lot of hassles as long as in the end things are made right, but that doesnt mean EVERYONE sees it that way or should.

Like I said, it is problematic and could cheese people off quite easily.

Let's see. Mayhem on the border vs. a slight inconvenience/pain in the rear. Yah, we don't want to risk the chance of a slight inconvenience/pain in the rear for someone. Let the border mayhem continue, I guess as long as it doesn't involve a slight inconvenience/pain in the rear.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Life's also too short to spend an extra 30 minutes at the airport on top of the already ridiculous 1-2 hours ahead of time you need to get there.

After the first time that happened, I'd be writing letters and being a pain in the *** until the red tape was cut through and something got fixed. It's absolutely asinine to subject everyone named Bob Gray or John Smith or whatever to extra security because some terrorist used it as an alias however many years ago. If they can't pinpoint it more than that, then they don't have reasonable suspicion in my mind to keep doing it.

I guess we have a difference of opinion on this one too. I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at the airport, but I sure as hell wouldn't stand idly by while this continues to happen year-after-year.

Embedded in this issue is "false positive" vs. "false negative"... right now "false negative" carries a MUCH larger political and financial cost.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

We in this country are such incredible whiners, it's simply hard to believe. Some things in life are hassels, and sometimes we go through hassels we haven't brought on ourselves. Deal with it and get on with life instead of developing a victim complex. If I'm Hispanic, then maybe I make sure I have ID with me. A minor inconvenience, but hardly worth the shrill moaning we hear. And if I forget it on a rare occasion, and happen to get pulled over on rare occasion, and I have to get ID to authorities to document my status, well, I do so and things are cleared up and I move on with life. It's not that hard.

I've made my position clear...I don't mind if a state bill like Arizonas passes, if doesn't cost the US govt in anyway (and therefore my tax burden).

Having said that...I don't mind hastles and most people don't if they are periodic and uniform. On the other hand...

Say you were repeatedly stopped or detained at the airport if you were say short or overweight while everyone else was let through. Say it transferred to routine traffic stops. I have a feeling you would get teed off very quickly. This is not just a 'gee, Hispanics are so touchy' issue.

 

[theprofromdover]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I wouldn't throw a hissy fit at the airport....

I have an artificial knee and get searched and patted down every time I fly unless they have the new body scanners. The only time I got upset, I told the examiner that I wanted to speak to his supervisor. I asked the supervisor why the guy had insisted on patting down my knee. The supervisor glared at the guy. I was wearing shorts!

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Embedded in this issue is "false positive" vs. "false negative"... right now "false negative" carries a MUCH larger political and financial cost.

That's fine, but I'm firmly in the camp that it's better to let 100 criminals go free than put one innocent man in jail. The same applies even if we aren't talking about strictly convictions.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I've made my position clear...I don't mind if a state bill like Arizonas passes, if doesn't cost the US govt in anyway (and therefore my tax burden).

Having said that...I don't mind hastles and most people don't if they are periodic and uniform. On the other hand...

Say you were repeatedly stopped or detained at the airport if you were say short or overweight while everyone else was let through. Say it transferred to routine traffic stops. I have a feeling you would get teed off very quickly. This is not just a 'gee, Hispanics are so touchy' issue.

You're right. its a "gee, most people are so touchy" issue.

And thinking about it in those terms, I have a lot bigger imposition on me in not being able to go a lot of places in southern Arizona without worrying for my life, than someone who might have to show an ID once in a great while when getting pulled over.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You're right. its a "gee, most people are so touchy" issue.

And thinking about it in those terms, I have a lot bigger imposition on me in not being able to go a lot of places in southern Arizona without worrying for my life, than someone who might have to show an ID once in a great while when getting pulled over.

Yeah, but legally speaking, one is a systematic failure to police, the other is a violation of civil rights. The former may be worse, but it also generally isn't actionable in a court of law (under most circumstances, if you get murdered, then good luck to your estate if they try to sue the cops for failing to prevent said murder). The latter is a slam dunk case if there's even a hint of racial profiling.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Yeah, but legally speaking, one is a systematic failure to police, the other is a violation of civil rights. The former may be worse, but it also generally isn't actionable in a court of law (under most circumstances, if you get murdered, then good luck to your estate if they try to sue the cops for failing to prevent said murder). The latter is a slam dunk case if there's even a hint of racial profiling.

Which is against the law which we're discussing, and a failure on the part of the cops, not the law. Otherwise, asking for ID when an individual has been lawfully detained - for instance, while pulled over for speeding - is hardly a violation of civil rights.