Hockey East 2010-2011

[thecomicbookguy]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

isn't it more nobody cares about them? "it's only uvm" kinda deal.

That's probably accurate. Apparently many ECAC fans/schools had a similar reaction when UVM left the conference.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

That's probably accurate. Apparently many ECAC fans/schools had a similar reaction when UVM left the conference.

like, "really, they left?"

 

[SteveF]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

BTW, as a relative newbie, i do not get the UVM-UML rivalry. did this happen pre HE? there is a lot of bitterness here......

none of us do. its like two ugly people meeting up at the prom. we just let them makeout in the back and pretend not to notice the trainwreck.

 

[sterlippo1]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

none of us do. its like two ugly people meeting up at the prom. we just let them makeout in the back and pretend not to notice the trainwreck.

hahahahahaha.........well, that explains it, thanks let 'em carry on then!

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

And Martin Brodeur is not the "winningest goalie in NHL history" because they don't keep win stats for goalies only teams.

Keep hitting that bong, kid.

And of course that had nothing to do with the rest of the NJ Devils

Finally, the ECAC has Hutton-like goalies every year who dominate the regular season and win crap when it counts (LeNeveu anyone?). The last ECAC goalie who was a legitimate money goalie was Dryden (and Yan Danis)

Really? You want to compare a goalie in the ECAC to arguably one of the best in HE (last year)? Yup, I would like to see the stats to back that one up...

It's funny, UNH and UVM fans have this weird obsession with Muse. At the end of the day he's still won two more NCAA titles then both schools. Combined.

No one has an obsession with Muse. The BC fans brought Muse into this discussion. And no one is knocking his NC's. Just some of us at the end of the day think NC are a result of the TEAM and not the tender.

Actually, this whole discussion was started when a UVM fan called Hutton and Hamilton the "best tandem in the league" last year, and the BC fans spazzed out because he didn't praise Muse as the second coming of Ken Dryden.

Exactly. I even noted that Muse and Milner will be the top tandem in the coming year, just that IMO last season the best tandem was Hutton and Hamilton. I think Muse is a top notch goalie. I just think if I were had to pick either H&H or M&M I would take the Hutton and Hamilton.

The UVMers won't admit that losing a Hockey East quarterfinal series is important regardless of whether or not you are going to the NCAAs.

You still haven't gotten over that have you. In case you didn't notice I was actually throwing some accolades over the UML way. But since you wanted to bring this up, as has been gone over ad naseum, UML out played UVM in the QF's and in the end probably helped UVM. Thank you. It gave the team time and a wake up call heading into the NCAA tourney. And that was probably more important then losing in the semifinals to BU. So you guys hang onto that victory and keep saying it over and over, this is going to be a rough season and you are going to need that moral victory.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Papagiorgio had the right idea. UML did have the 2nd best tandem in Hockey East behind a pair of BC goalies... but it was Venti/Muse.

Venti save % 1.000/ GAA 0.00 > Hutton save % .928/ GAA 2.04
Muse save % .910 2.4 GAA > Hamilton save % .905/ GAA 2.91

Muse had as many wins as both of the UML goalies combined...

Knowing that stats are the end all be all for our friend jcarter (except for moral victories against BU), I know he will agree with this.

You are 100% correct Carmine, I stand corrected. Venti was the best goalie in HE, which is exactly why York played Muse. Makes sense to me. But then again we were talking tandem, sooooo why not go ahead and look at the stats combining both of them...that would probably be more accurate.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

You are 100% correct Carmine, I stand corrected. Venti was the best goalie in HE, which is exactly why York played Muse. Makes sense to me.

So stats prove it! But now York giving out playing time proves that is wrong? Boy you flip flop a lot. This is about the 5th time in this conversation you've been dancing around. I'm betting soon you'll go back to using comparitive performance vs. Maine as what constitutes a better goalie.

Tell us again that wins are not a goaltending statistic, that was a good one.

Maybe you're saying York used an eyeball test *GASP* because stats don't prove much!?!?!?! Maybe? I mean, he's no Sneddon, but... ya know. He's won some hardware and knows his stuff.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

So stats prove it! But now York giving out playing time proves that is wrong? Boy you flip flop a lot. This is about the 5th time in this conversation you've been dancing around. I'm betting soon you'll go back to using comparitive performance vs. Maine as what constitutes a better goalie.

Nope Nick, you guys have won me over. Muse and Milner are the best goaltending tandem in HE. You got me.

Hey do you know where i can get some "eyeball test" glasses so that I don't have to rely on statistics.

And one last thing real quick because I'm curious about it. Why is "wins" not a team stat, other then obvious reason that someone lists it next to the goaltender?

Thanks in advance for you insightful thoughts.

 

[NUMcNeely]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

MAN this is dumb.

Here's my 2 cents.

Hutton and Muse are both quality goalies that any team in HE would want and the argument is regular season stats for hutton on a defensive team vs post season glory on a higher caliber team for muse, am i right (mostly anyway?). So you can hate on Muse for his poor regular season stats all you want, but the fact of the matter is that his stats in postseason play at any level, be it NCAA or HE are extraordinary and there is something to be said for a goalie who plays his best when it counts most. You can argue that other players "carried" the team in this game or that game, but the fact of the matter is that Muse was there and played well enough for BC to win in all of the games that they played in the post season, including that HE semis game against bu in 08-09.

We may never know whether a goalie like Hutton truly had that switch where he turned it on as the games became more important, he never had the opportunities that Muse had. You can't go just by regular season stats to determine a great netminder because you eliminate the human factor. See Thiessen, Brad. Astounding regular season for the 08-09 huskies, but he couldn't carry his play through the postseason. You can easily argue he didn't have the switch that Muse had. Easily (and this is coming from a huskies fan).

So if I'm going into a season where I know my team can achieve great success both in the regular season and beyond, who do I want? I want a goalie who will be above average for the regular season, but who could single-handily win me a postseason game and who has legit postseason experience. I want John Muse.

Hutton had another solid season, but the fact is we don't know what he can do when the pressure is REALLY on (yes hockey east quarters is playoff experience, but it is no NC game.) Plus as far as value, Hutton played a bit more than half a season as they had a rotation, so his value is diminished a bit there. Muse traded off games as well, so his value also is diminished a bit.

Bottom line, you play to win the big trophies and although muse had a better team in front of him for much of his career and more opportunities, he still came up big when they needed him to.

Can we please talk about something else?

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Hey do you know where i can get some "eyeball test" glasses so that I don't have to rely on statistics.

You'll just have to figure that out for yourself. When you can watch some games and come to some of your own conclusions confidently without needed to dig up stats to "prove" something, then you'll be there.

Why is "wins" not a team stat, other then obvious reason that someone lists it next to the goaltender?

Who said it wasn't a team stat? The only thing anyone said about "wins" statistics is that you implied it was not a goaltending statistic. And... it is. Sorry.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

You'll just have to figure that out for yourself. When you can watch some games and come to some of your own conclusions confidently without needed to dig up stats to "prove" something, then you'll be there.

Huh? So basically coming to a conclusion and being confident about it with no supporting stats is the new measuring sitck? Is this you Hokydad? Did you hack Nick's account?

Who said it wasn't a team stat? The only thing anyone said about "wins" statistics is that you implied it was not a goaltending statistic. And... it is. Sorry.

Hmm, the implications appear to be a problem. I imply that it is a team stat (last time I checked goalies were part of a team). You stated it was a goaltending statistic, mainly because you would like to deflect from the fact that Hutton had better individual statistics then did Muse both in the regular and post seasons. I get it.

Stop trying to pretend that you aren't attempting to argue a ridiculous point to avoid acknowledging that Hutton put up better numbers. It's tiresome and makes you look like you a petty child...like Slasher or something.

Funny part is, if I posted the same comment about Hutton and Hamilton being the best goaltending tandem in HE last year under an alias, no one would have even said a word.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Can we please talk about something else?

Sure. What have you got?

 

[Slasher7]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

The argument presented was that Muse is a better goalie because he's won postseason titles. (This is disregarding the BC fans' cherry-picked stats.)

My point is that just because a team wins a championship, that doesn't mean that any given player on that team is better than players who've never won. I didn't think it was all that difficult of a concept.

Here's a better example of the point: who's a better baseball player, Mark Bellhorn or Ted Williams?

Basically, all I'm arguing is that even though BC won the title, it is merely possible that there was a better goaltender than Muse in Hockey East.

(And, I was at the Frozen Four in '08. Gerbe was the key player on that team, and yes, I will maintain that Jack Parker could have played in net and they'd still have won.)

You know the hate is strong towards BC when fools like CBG say Muse isn't a good goalie even though he's allowed a total of 3 goals in 4 Frozen Four games. I guess you see it all eventually around here...

You know what, if Muse wins again next year, he'll be the greatest goaltender in Hockey East history. It won't even be a debate.

 

[Slasher7]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Nobody likes UVM.

I think most are apathetic towards UVM.

 

[thecomicbookguy]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

You know the hate is strong towards BC when fools like CBG say Muse isn't a good goalie even though he's allowed a total of 3 goals in 4 Frozen Four games. I guess you see it all eventually around here...

Thank you for ignoring my comment about this year's Frozen Four.

I'm merely arguing that he might not have been the best goalie in Hockey East last year. Only in a BC fan's mind could failing to praise a certain player as the "BEST EVAR" be equivocated to "hating" that team/school. Hell, I'm just allowing for the possibility that he might not be the best, and getting attacked for it. Wow.

For the record, I think Schneider and Clemmensen were both superior goaltenders. I'd take Schneider over Muse easily. And yes, that's going by stats and the "eyeball test".

 

[Hokydad]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Thank you for ignoring my comment about this year's Frozen Four.

I'm merely arguing that he might not have been the best goalie in Hockey East last year. Only in a BC fan's mind could failing to praise a certain player as the "BEST EVAR" be equivocated to "hating" that team/school. Hell, I'm just allowing for the possibility that he might not be the best, and getting attacked for it. Wow.

For the record, I think Schneider and Clemmensen were both superior goaltenders. I'd take Schneider over Muse easily. And yes, that's going by stats and the "eyeball test".

Maybe so but Muse has 2 rings and that is 100% all that matters. He won every single playoff game he ever played. CS never won a champinship, Clemmensen won one. Great for him but he Muse won 2

the only stat and eyeball test is the last one standing, just like a title fight.

Muse has the most success in the history of BC goalies, period.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

Maybe so but Muse has 2 rings and that is 100% all that matters. He won every single playoff game he ever played.

He did lose a semifinal game to BU in 2009... but that's not really the point.

Anyway... I wonder what it's like when a UNH fan tries to take a look at a guy like John Muse. Here's a guy that doesn't have the stats but wins all the big games. Basically he's an anti-Conklin and anti-Ayers. I mean, he's on the GOOD side of the Frozen Four blowouts. Talk about opposites.

Must be strange to do for UNH fans nonetheless.

 

[SteveF]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

I would liken muse to josh beckett. beckett has put together some decent seasons (best being a 2007 cy young runner up); but has really made his mark in the playoffs (7-3, 2 WS titles).

Sure he has won 15 games 4 times (3 BOS, 1 FLA) but when you look at his era+ from his best season (2007) it is only 145; which means in the history of baseball there are over 500 better single season performances.

but the guy is obviously a huge gamer, and no one doubts his ability when something is on the line. so in summary, muse + redneck = beckett

 

[Slasher7]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

For the record, I think Schneider and Clemmensen were both superior goaltenders. I'd take Schneider over Muse easily. And yes, that's going by stats and the "eyeball test".

I disagree about Schneider over Muse. Schneider couldn't get the job done in St. Louis with a better BC team vs. a MSU team that BC should have killed. He also gave up the winning goal with less than :30 seconds left, too. If I am starting a team, I'm taking Muse over Schneider.

As a UNH fan, if Muse played for your team, you'd want a statue built for him considering how much you overrate your own goaltenders up there.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Hockey East 2010-2011

I disagree about Schneider over Muse. Schneider couldn't get the job done in St. Louis with a better BC team vs. a MSU team that BC should have killed. He also gave up the winning goal with less than :30 seconds left, too. If I am starting a team, I'm taking Muse over Schneider.
.

?? With a better team?? How do you figure, the old eyeball test again. Because statistically that's not the case at all.

In '07 BC scored 142 g in 42 games = 3.38 gpg. outshooting their opponents by an average of 1.6 shots per game.

In '10 BC scored 171g in 42 games = 4.07 gpg and outshot their opponents by an average of 6.5 shots per game.


In '08 BC scored...well you get the picture...

Muse has had a better offensive team in each of his trips to the NC game then Schneider did. So while you can argue he didn't get the job done, I'm not sure what the basis of a "better team" you are using. It certainly wasn't offense.