Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

the dems drive me absolutely nuts... how can you figure we can pass a health care bill that we won't be able to afford as a nation and then on top of that pass cap and trade and amnesty. Either one of those will break the back of our system... both is "game over" where we become like Mexico (would like to say Guatemala... but functionally it'd be Mexico) where you have a ruling elite class and then every other poor guy wallows in the muck. You'd think Dems see Americans more as pets than humans.

How can you consider that moral? How can you consider that better? How can you even dare call it righteous? The math doesn't work because you dream it to be or you consider it moral to be so. You'd think the party that claims the mantle of science would be able to add a few numbers together.

Completely disagree with this. Just focusing on health care, here’s why we need a strong government option, IMO.

Medicare should be expanded to cover all citizens who chose to use it. Private insurance would also be available to those who prefer that option. Anyone who can afford it will pay for Medicare and those who can’t won’t, with different levels of payment in between. This would lower the overall cost of health care since Medicare pays out $.95 for every dollar they receive verse $.81 for private insurers. In addition, since everyone is covered, more preventative care can be used so the uninsured don’t wait for a catastrophic event that is expensive, and we pay for anyway.

Another benefit is that fewer claims will be denied. Despite rhetoric to the contrary the government has much less incentive to deny a claim than private insurers, whose primary objective is to increase shareholder return. Private insurers have strong financial interests to deny claims that simply do not exist in the government.

Will taxes go up on individuals? Absolutely. But if companies drop their plans and let the government cover their employees, their profits will increase significantly. This will raise tax revenues and lessen the increase on individuals. This will also make companies more competitive in the global marketplace and motivate individuals to start companies since they will not have to worry about covering their employees. In other words, a strong public option will stimulate the economy and create jobs.

The free market is the best way to distribute most goods and services. However, health care should not be left to the whims of the marketplace. Business efficiency will improve if companies don’t have to worry about their employees health care and individuals will be more productive if they do not have to worry about a catastrophic health care event hurling them into bankruptcy. However, co-pays and other fees should be levied on users of the system, who can afford it, so people do not think it is a free service.

I believe that a strong public option is vital to create an economic rebound that includes jobs.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Completely disagree with this. Just focusing on health care, here’s why we need a strong government option, IMO.

Medicare should be expanded to cover all citizens who chose to use it. Private insurance would also be available to those who prefer that option. Anyone who can afford it will pay for Medicare and those who can’t won’t, with different levels of payment in between. This would lower the overall cost of health care since Medicare pays out $.95 for every dollar they receive verse $.81 for private insurers. In addition, since everyone is covered, more preventative care can be used so the uninsured don’t wait for a catastrophic event that is expensive, and we pay for anyway.

You'll never convince me that the .95 vs .81 is an honest accounting. There's just no way that the remaining .05 covers the expenses of running Medicare - all the salaries, the capital expenditures for the administrative buildings, the utility bills, postage, IT, etc. I have to believe that a lot of these expenses are hidden in other areas of the Federal budget, much like a D-1 college football team can claim to be profitable, as long as the cost of building the stadium is kept off the books.

Another benefit is that fewer claims will be denied. Despite rhetoric to the contrary the government has much less incentive to deny a claim than private insurers, whose primary objective is to increase shareholder return. Private insurers have strong financial interests to deny claims that simply do not exist in the government.

I'd make the same argument, but claiming it as a DISADVANTAGE. There are lots of claims that should be denied. Sorry, but I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for liver transplants for 60 year old alcoholic overweight smokers. If the government health care plan is just going to rubber-stamp any and all claims, then we are definitely screwed.

Will taxes go up on individuals? Absolutely. But if companies drop their plans and let the government cover their employees, their profits will increase significantly. This will raise tax revenues and lessen the increase on individuals. This will also make companies more competitive in the global marketplace and motivate individuals to start companies since they will not have to worry about covering their employees. In other words, a strong public option will stimulate the economy and create jobs.

Wait - I thought the windfall for the companies was going to be turned over to the employees to buy individual insurance? In that case, the profitability of the company would remain exactly the same. That "free money" can't be double booked as increased payroll AND increased profits. Furthermore, the portion of the money that does go to increased payroll is now taxable at individual income tax rates, so the real windfall is for the government (surprise, surprise).

The free market is the best way to distribute most goods and services. However, health care should not be left to the whims of the marketplace. Business efficiency will improve if companies don’t have to worry about their employees health care and individuals will be more productive if they do not have to worry about a catastrophic health care event hurling them into bankruptcy. However, co-pays and other fees should be levied on users of the system, who can afford it, so people do not think it is a free service.

I acknowledge that companies could probably cut their HR staff in half if they didn't have to deal with buying health coverage for their employees, and the less HR people there are in the world, the better! However, that benefit will be completely outweighed by the millstone of the increased tax burden required to pay for government-provided health care. What country with public health care has the same productivity as the US? Oh, that's right - none of them.

 

[Bill]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Completely disagree with this. Just focusing on health care, here’s why we need a strong government option, IMO.

Medicare should be expanded to cover all citizens who chose to use it. Private insurance would also be available to those who prefer that option. Anyone who can afford it will pay for Medicare and those who can’t won’t, with different levels of payment in between. This would lower the overall cost of health care since Medicare pays out $.95 for every dollar they receive verse $.81 for private insurers. In addition, since everyone is covered, more preventative care can be used so the uninsured don’t wait for a catastrophic event that is expensive, and we pay for anyway.

Another benefit is that fewer claims will be denied. Despite rhetoric to the contrary the government has much less incentive to deny a claim than private insurers, whose primary objective is to increase shareholder return. Private insurers have strong financial interests to deny claims that simply do not exist in the government.

Will taxes go up on individuals? Absolutely. But if companies drop their plans and let the government cover their employees, their profits will increase significantly. This will raise tax revenues and lessen the increase on individuals. This will also make companies more competitive in the global marketplace and motivate individuals to start companies since they will not have to worry about covering their employees. In other words, a strong public option will stimulate the economy and create jobs.

The free market is the best way to distribute most goods and services. However, health care should not be left to the whims of the marketplace. Business efficiency will improve if companies don’t have to worry about their employees health care and individuals will be more productive if they do not have to worry about a catastrophic health care event hurling them into bankruptcy. However, co-pays and other fees should be levied on users of the system, who can afford it, so people do not think it is a free service.

I believe that a strong public option is vital to create an economic rebound that includes jobs.

According to the AMA, Medicare denies more claims than private insurance companies:

http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/12/21/evil-insurance-companies/

Medicare (along with Social Security) is also contributing significantly to the bankruptcy of the country.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

According to the AMA, Medicare denies more claims than private insurance companies:

http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/2009/12/21/evil-insurance-companies/

Medicare (along with Social Security) is also contributing significantly to the bankruptcy of the country.

Doh. It is contributing because we have a huge bubble of old people who are living longer and are sicker before they die.

Not an economist but if we actually had some healthy people in there providing revenue and not using a few 100K in the months before they die maybe things would even off?

I think trucker is right on the money.

 

[Bill]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Doh. It is contributing because we have a huge bubble of old people who are living longer and are sicker before they die.

Not an economist but if we actually had some healthy people in there providing revenue and not using a few 100K in the months before they die maybe things would even off?

I think trucker is right on the money.

It really comes down to the government promising more than it can deliver. The huge tax increases necessary to make Medicare (and SS) self sustaining aren't likely going to be acceptable to the American public. The alternative is to cut benefits, but that has always proved difficult to do no matter how many times Congress has talked about it. Medicare has unfunded liabilities on the order of 85-90 trillion dollars. A public health care option would just make things worse. The government hasn't shown any ability to manage major entitlement programs in an economically sustainable way.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

It really comes down to the government promising more than it can deliver. The huge tax increases necessary to make Medicare (and SS) self sustaining aren't likely going to be acceptable to the American public. The alternative is to cut benefits, but that has always proved difficult to do no matter how many times Congress has talked about it. Medicare has unfunded liabilities on the order of 85-90 trillion dollars. A public health care option would just make things worse. The government hasn't shown any ability to manage major entitlement programs in an economically sustainable way.

This doesn't address the fact that the only folks utilizing are older and high utilizers. If, as trucker said, they had younger folks paying in they would put in more than they would utilize. No matter what is acceptable to the American taxpayer they will either pay the government or someone else unless we are going to make euthanasia (active or passively letting folks die) a way of life.

 

[Bill]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

This doesn't address the fact that the only folks utilizing are older and high utilizers. If, as trucker said, they had younger folks paying in they would put in more than they would utilize. No matter what is acceptable to the American taxpayer they will either pay the government or someone else unless we are going to make euthanasia (active or passively letting folks die) a way of life.

I don't see any way that enough younger folks could pay in and make Medicare sustainable. It's too far in the hole.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I don't see any way that enough younger folks could pay in and make Medicare sustainable. It's too far in the hole.

I'm sure its asking too much, but the only way I see out of this whole mess is for people to start being responsible for themselves and have the guts to turn their back on those who aren't*.

*(obvious exception for those with natural disabilities)

 

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I'm sure its asking too much, but the only way I see out of this whole mess is for people to start being responsible for themselves and have the guts to turn their back on those who aren't*.

*(obvious exception for those with natural disabilities)

Yeah, it takes real guts to take care of yourself and forget about those less fortunate.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Good think people with MinnFan's attitude weren't running the country during WWII. We'd all be speaking German east of the Mississippi and Japanese west of it had that "everybody for themselves" mantra prevailed at the time.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Yeah, it takes real guts to take care of yourself and forget about those less fortunate.

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

 

[MattS]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Yeah, it takes real guts to take care of yourself and forget about those less fortunate.

There is a big difference between responsible and less fortunate.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

The decisions you make are only half the story. The other half of the story is the decisions you have. If you're born to a single mother in a trailer park, the set of possible choices you'll make in your lifetime are rather limited...

 

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

Not really. There are many people in this country, with limited skills, who work two or three menial part time jobs with no health benefits and little or no chance for advancement. They must decide every month whether to pay for health insurance or food and rent. So someone like this, with no insurance, starts to get the symptoms of a serious illness, but they can't afford to go to the doctor. So they wait until whatever they have has reached a critical stage and then go to the emergency room and this wait may have costed them their lives. And the cost to the taxpayer is much greater than if they had reacted earlier.

So yeah, it takes real guts to take care of yourself and forget about those less fortunate, who don't have many options or decisions to make. And if you are healthy and financially comfortable, you are very fortunate that you have had the opportunity to make the right decisions.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

BS

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

Life has never been nor will never be that simple.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Not really. There are many people in this country, with limited skills, who work two or three menial part time jobs with no health benefits and little or no chance for advancement. They must decide every month whether to pay for health insurance or food and rent. So someone like this, with no insurance, starts to get the symptoms of a serious illness, but they can't afford to go to the doctor. So they wait until whatever they have has reached a critical stage and then go to the emergency room and this wait may have costed them their lives. And the cost to the taxpayer is much greater than if they had reacted earlier.


So yeah, it takes real guts to take care of yourself and forget about those less fortunate, who don't have many options or decisions to make. And if you are healthy and financially comfortable, you are very fortunate that you have had the opportunity to make the right decisions.

And why do they have limited skills? I certainly could have limited skills if I had chosen to take a different path.

Obviously it can be harder for some people than others, but the beauty of this country is that everyone has a chance to move up the ladder.

Why must the taxpayer be the one to pick up the tab? If there are people like you who care so much about these less fortunate people then you can help them out. Let me keep some more of my money and I'd be much more likely to help them out directly. I just have a hard time trusting gov't to do more of what is beyond its original mandate and it has already shown it is horrible at doing.

I was originally speaking to what is necessary to fix the system. I see no other way out that doesn't cripple this country.

 

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

And why do they have limited skills? I certainly could have limited skills if I had chosen to take a different path.

Obviously it can be harder for some people than others, but the beauty of this country is that everyone has a chance to move up the ladder.

Why must the taxpayer be the one to pick up the tab? If there are people like you who care so much about these less fortunate people then you can help them out. Let me keep some more of my money and I'd be much more likely to help them out directly. I just have a hard time trusting gov't to do more of what is beyond its original mandate and it has already shown it is horrible at doing.

I was originally speaking to what is necessary to fix the system. I see no other way out that doesn't cripple this country.

Maybe you would help others if you paid less taxes but most people don't. The bottom line is that the taxpayers are already paying for the uninsured and a gov't run plan could reduce that cost since the previously uninsured could get preventative care before a catastrophic event sends them to the ER.

We'll never agree but you shouldn't confuse your stance on this with "guts".

 

[Handyman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Where I am at in life has nothing to do with being fortunate. We are all a product of the sum total of our decisions in life.

Whatever world you live in, stay there you pollute ours with ridiculous thoughts like that.

You do realize decisions OTHERS make will have an effect on you too right? My lord sometimes I find myself agreeing with you and then I read idiocy like this and want to shoot myself for it.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

My lord sometimes I find myself agreeing with you and then I read idiocy like this and want to shoot myself for it.

WIN-WIN SITUATION!!!!