Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

[Bill]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Ummmm.....that's what I wrote Bill?

The implication I took from you post was that the Democratic members of the Senate nixed it. It was actually only 12 centrist Dems that caused it to fail (along with all the Reps). The vast majority of Dems voted for it (I think it had 47 Dem votes for). Perhaps you intended to say it was only a small minority of Dems that nixed it?

At any rate, Harry Reid was miffed because the AMA told him they had enough Reps in the bag to overcome any Dem resistance. They were wrong.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

When Congressman start voting based on the contents of the actual Bill instead of what Pork they're getting and what's the best vote to keep their jobs, let me know.

Otherwise, the whole debate on this and anything else is fantasy.

 

[Bill]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

When Congressman start voting based on the contents of the actual Bill instead of what Pork they're getting and what's the best vote to keep their jobs, let me know.

Otherwise, the whole debate on this and anything else is fantasy.

Well it's an election year so we could start the process of booting them all out and starting over.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

MinnFan, less people frivilously accessing the system eases up the constraints on a finite resource (doctors and hospitals). To use your odd car analogy, if a billion people buy huge SUV's the cost of my new car does go up because they will be consuming two finite resources, steel to make the larger cars will go up in cost, as well as gas as more of it is being consumed.

Then according to your logic adding 30M people to the system is going to skyrocket costs. On this we agree.

I know the argument is that its going to be cheaper than them using the ER, but that system at least limited their access. Now they will be able to go in anytime at no cost. They will be able to get all the tests they want with other peoples' money. It is also likely that ER usage will decrease very little as people will not be willing or able to wait in the long lines created by putting that many more people in the system.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Then according to your logic adding 30M people to the system is going to skyrocket costs. On this we agree.

I know the argument is that its going to be cheaper than them using the ER, but that system at least limited their access. Now they will be able to go in anytime at no cost. They will be able to get all the tests they want with other peoples' money. It is also likely that ER usage will decrease very little as people will not be willing or able to wait in the long lines created by putting that many more people in the system.

You've probably heard this before, but your logic is off.

There is nothing limiting their access to the ER except for maybe waiting to be seen. Furthermore, it is true that younger, healthier people who previous had the option of playing Russian Roulette with the system now have to pay in, hence deferring some of the extra costs.

 

[MattS]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

You've probably heard this before, but your logic is off.

There is nothing limiting their access to the ER except for maybe waiting to be seen. Furthermore, it is true that younger, healthier people who previous had the option of playing Russian Roulette with the system now have to pay in, hence deferring some of the extra costs.

I agree with you to a certain degree. That there won't all of a sudden be 30M people signing up for doctor's visits as soon as they can. However, it is just as foolish to think that there will be no or little effect on the demands of health care providers. Haven't we already seen this in Mass where there are extremely long waits due to their health care laws? I have yet to see a plausible explanation as to why this wouldn't apply to the whole country, at least to some measurable degree, once the Obamacare bill is passed.

 

[joecct]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I agree with you to a certain degree. That there won't all of a sudden be 30M people signing up for doctor's visits as soon as they can. However, it is just as foolish to think that there will be no or little effect on the demands of health care providers. Haven't we already seen this in Mass where there are extremely long waits due to their health care laws? I have yet to see a plausible explanation as to why this wouldn't apply to the whole country, at least to some measurable degree, once the Obamacare bill is passed.

Case in point on Mass.

Sonny boy sustained a concussion playing D-III hockey. In order for him to skate again, the trainers want him to see a neurologist to make sure that everything is AOK in the head.

Next available neurologist appointment: February 8. I am not a happy camper and am flying him home so he can see one next week. I guess I am like those Canadians who come to the USA for quicker health treatment.

 

[sagard]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Then according to your logic adding 30M people to the system is going to skyrocket costs. On this we agree.

I know the argument is that its going to be cheaper than them using the ER, but that system at least limited their access. Now they will be able to go in anytime at no cost. They will be able to get all the tests they want with other peoples' money. It is also likely that ER usage will decrease very little as people will not be willing or able to wait in the long lines created by putting that many more people in the system.

What is the best solution then? Tort reform?

I actually admire Obama for a trying to do something that is proving unpopular. He has always kind of floated with whatever is popular at the moment and I hope he sees this through.

I also hope future admins and congress have the courage to modify the pieces of this health plan that are proven to not work financially.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I agree with you to a certain degree. That there won't all of a sudden be 30M people signing up for doctor's visits as soon as they can. However, it is just as foolish to think that there will be no or little effect on the demands of health care providers. Haven't we already seen this in Mass where there are extremely long waits due to their health care laws? I have yet to see a plausible explanation as to why this wouldn't apply to the whole country, at least to some measurable degree, once the Obamacare bill is passed.

I haven't seen that in Mass myself, but wouldn't try to tell you that my experience is everybody else's. Case in point, I broke my elbow (unknown to me at the time) before the HE championship game. Not wishing to go to the ER (where there are long wait times) I decided to go to the game, have a few beers to dull the pain, and then call my provider the next morning for treatment. They saw me that day, a Sunday morning.

A had a similar experience of a minor medical issue over the summer, and again was seen Sunday evening by my provider. Not discounting anything les says, as she's in the field, but I'm wondering how many of the delays that people speak of would have happened regardless of whether the Mass law was passed or not?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

What is the best solution then? Tort reform?

Its estimated that defensive medicine costs $110B/yr so tort reform certainly would help.

My solution would be to give individuals the same deduction that companies get for providing health insurance. People would then be able to get the money that the company spends on benefits in cash (it costs them the same regardless) and shop around for the best plan. Create some true competiton.

Elective procedures (lasik, cosmetic surgery, etc) have dropped in price over time whereas all regular healthcare has increased over the same time. This is primarily because of competiton and profit motive.

The final thing I would add would be to turn what we have now back into insurance. Insurance is supposed to price risk. If you speed a lot you are going to pay more because you are a greater risk. When then shoudn't someone who is terribly overweight pay more than someone who is in shape. They would still be pooled in with other people so bring the cost down, but they would pay more. A nice bonus is that it creates a disincentive for certain behaviors.

Along those lines, car insurance doesn't cover oil changes, flat tires, etc. Why do we then expect health insurance to cover our routine visits then? We should have the option for a plan that has high deductible catestrophic coverage. This would be very cheap and virtually everyone would be able to afford it. You then could use a HSA to cover the cost of yearly visits or minor injuries. You would do it for things that weren't emergencies and you'd be able to find the best value for your money instead of who your insurance company has a deal with.

Of course, these solutions do not provide gov't more control so I highly doubt we will ever see them implimented.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

What is the best solution then? Tort reform?

I actually admire Obama for a trying to do something that is proving unpopular. He has always kind of floated with whatever is popular at the moment and I hope he sees this through.

I also hope future admins and congress have the courage to modify the pieces of this health plan that are proven to not work financially.

My point all along. When you strip out all the BS, you have to ask yourself what are the Republicans providing that will generate by CBO analysis even a quarter of the savings the Dem plan is estimate to. Where is their plan to expand coverage? Both don't exist. In fact, I'd go one further and ask when is the last time ANY GOP bill passed into law was estimated to reduce the deficit by independent analysis? I'd say somewhere around 1995...

 

[sagard]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Its estimated that defensive medicine costs $110B/yr so tort reform certainly would help.
....
Of course, these solutions do not provide gov't more control so I highly doubt we will ever see them implimented.

So hopefully the next time Repubs are in charge whether it is '12 or '16 they will go about addressing fiscal issues vs. starting wars and making the Dems look like responsible spenders.

Unfortunately your last sentence rings too true. It's not that the Republicans don't want a lot of Gov't control, they just want to be the ones making the rules.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Case in point on Mass.

Sonny boy sustained a concussion playing D-III hockey. In order for him to skate again, the trainers want him to see a neurologist to make sure that everything is AOK in the head.

Next available neurologist appointment: February 8. I am not a happy camper and am flying him home so he can see one next week. I guess I am like those Canadians who come to the USA for quicker health treatment.

Trainers should be able to score something way before that.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

So hopefully the next time Repubs are in charge whether it is '12 or '16 they will go about addressing fiscal issues vs. starting wars and making the Dems look like responsible spenders.

Unfortunately your last sentence rings too true. It's not that the Republicans don't want a lot of Gov't control, they just want to be the ones making the rules.

His first sentence rings false however, as the CBO estimate of tort reform, was far, far lower than the figures he's giving. Tort reform isn't going to eliminate defensive medicine.

However, a better question is why didn't the GOP attack this problem, which was very well known, when they ran the Congress and Presidency from 2001-2007? Why should we trust the same no solution people again?

 

[joecct]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

His first sentence rings false however, as the CBO estimate of tort reform, was far, far lower than the figures he's giving. Tort reform isn't going to eliminate defensive medicine.

However, a better question is why didn't the GOP attack this problem, which was very well known, when they ran the Congress and Presidency from 2001-2007? Why should we trust the same no solution people again?

Because they GOP was not in charge. Aliens posessed their minds and bodies early on and turned them into mindless spending zombies.

I have no other explanation on how they broke faith with their heritage.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Because they GOP was not in charge. Aliens posessed their minds and bodies early on and turned them into mindless spending zombies.

I have no other explanation on how they broke faith with their heritage.

Cheney/Bush were alien leaders


sorry, couldn't resist

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Taxing Cadillac health plans is such an important way to control costs that unions will be exempted for 7 years.

 

[walrus]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Taxing Cadillac health plans is such an important way to control costs that unions will be exempted for 7 years.

I'm shocked

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Oh stop whining both of you. Gotta take care of the union.

 

[walrus]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Oh stop whining both of you. Gotta take care of the union.

No doubt, he owes them big time. Change you can believe in.