Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

could you both be right?

start with a system that won't allow 'bad' teachers to be addressed...suffer decade after decade of declining performance in the classroom (not due to bad teachers alone) and then try to figure out how to fix it...since you can't change the bad teacher protection program you try to figure out how to get scores up (scores, as flawed as they are, are the only measure people can agree upon)...the only way to do that is to put teeth behind it...since it is a government entity it consumes money at an alarming pace and everybody wants to protect the number of bodies since that justifies administrator ratios etc...so you threaten to cut funding if test scores lag...so they invent the block system where certain subjects are only taught for half a year (the half leading up to the test on that subject) but are taught for a disproportionate length to cram stuff into heads so it can be regurgitated in 4 hours on a Tuesday afternoon.

Sure, we could. But the solution has been/is much worse than the problem ever was.

 

[pirate]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Sure, we could. But the solution has been/is much worse than the problem ever was.

Not disagreeing with you.

If you and me were in charge of 'fixing it' we'd have one heck of a problem to fix...when it is the government trying to fix it you can count on them doing it wrong 80% of the time but making up for it by spending way too much money

Looking at it from the president's view (not Bush, just the guy in charge at the time)...you probably are seeing info that says the declining educational performance is putting us behind other countries in terms of where business wants to invest, has our own companies finding people with better educations and better communication skills in India etc., is creating a huge drag as we need social programs to support this growing class of ill-prepared and the 20-50 year projections look really bad. An ill-equipped 18 year old will be around for another 60 years.

So, you have to start trying to fix it, your solution might be worse than it was yesterday but might be better than it will be left unchecked.

I don't know all the options we'd have before us, eliminating the union wouldn't fly, vouchers for charter schools etc. is not popular, better testing and holding people accountable sounds good...the manner in which it is executed, the unintended consequences and the school tactics to circumvent the intention are all details that could have been addressed.

you know I'm a private industry guy...I guarantee if you and I had a company that would design and implement this solution vs. letting the government (fed and local) do it themselves we'd build in checks and balances, we'd not let them alter all of their teaching schedules to 'rig' the tests, we'd test them on all subjects etc., we wouldn't create penalties that used chainsaws instead of scalpels and we'd do it for 50% of what it costs to build and another 50% of what it costs to administer.

edit: and we'd still make a fortune

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

The good teachers are now forced to teach to the test. The test is what funds the school. The creativity in the classroom is now gone.

Perhaps our disagreement is over the definition of a good teacher. In my mind a "good" teacher would still be able to teach creatively while getting the students to achieve the expected scores. If a teacher is given a certain target and reacts by deciding to lead rote memorization drills, then I'm not sure how good of a teacher she was in the first place.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Perhaps our disagreement is over the definition of a good teacher. In my mind a "good" teacher would still be able to teach creatively while getting the students to achieve the expected scores. If a teacher is given a certain target and reacts by deciding to lead rote memorization drills, then I'm not sure how good of a teacher she was in the first place.

I'd agree with that argument if I hadn't seen the curriculum and test requirements and the amount of time they're given to do it in. There's not a lot of wiggle room and the pressure from the principals and the superintendents is fierce.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Definitely flawed logic. I had some GREAT teachers who were obsessed with test scores and also some horrible teachers who didn't know what an AP test was. Testing or not, good teachers will still be good teachers and bad teachers will still be bad teachers.

Oops. Sorry. According to the NEA, there are no bad teachers. Strike that last statement...

As someone who is training to be a teacher, knows teachers and how the system is set up I will just tell you that you are wrong and leave it at that. The system isn't set up like an AP class, it is set up like a seminar here they give us a test and we teach to it. Higher order thinking is now a waste of time.

But hey, feel free to rant against the NEA it really shows you know what you are talking about...

 

[Handyman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I'd agree with that argument if I hadn't seen the curriculum and test requirements and the amount of time they're given to do it in. There's not a lot of wiggle room and the pressure from the principals and the superintendents is fierce.

There is NO wiggle room...why do you think schools now teach classes or offer extra study sessions specifically set up to teach students how to take the test. Schools cant afford to have shop classes or music classes, the social sciences are a hair away from being diced up but we can teach kids how to fill out the Scantron and how to guess their way to graduation! Retention is worthless, cram, scan and guess and you too can be successful!

 

[Handyman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

could you both be right?

start with a system that won't allow 'bad' teachers to be addressed...suffer decade after decade of declining performance in the classroom (not due to bad teachers alone) and then try to figure out how to fix it...since you can't change the bad teacher protection program you try to figure out how to get scores up (scores, as flawed as they are, are the only measure people can agree upon)...the only way to do that is to put teeth behind it...since it is a government entity it consumes money at an alarming pace and everybody wants to protect the number of bodies since that justifies administrator ratios etc...so you threaten to cut funding if test scores lag...so they invent the block system where certain subjects are only taught for half a year (the half leading up to the test on that subject) but are taught for a disproportionate length to cram stuff into heads so it can be regurgitated in 4 hours on a Tuesday afternoon.

The whole system is flawed...remember this is a system that tells you as you enter your Master's Program "make sure not to finish your Master's up before you start teaching because it will be harder to get a job!" Think about that for a second, I am supposed to be educating kids, so you would think schools and districts would WANT me to be certified to as high a degree as possible. (this is not metaphorical it is fact! I was told this in every class, when I went to seminars for student teaching, by teachers i worked with and those I know) Thanks to the Teachers Union though they have to pay me a higher salary for my Masters meaning most districts will pass to save money. Private schools or schools in affluent districts might hire me once again making them (theoretically) disproportionately better.

Get rid of the Teachers Union, get rid of NCLB...then we can start to talk seriously about education in this country.

 

[Slap Shot]

How many tests are there Handy and how many hours of the school day are devoted to them? I can't imagine every module (or even half the school day) is dedicated solely to these tests.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

How many tests are there Handy and how many hours of the school day are devoted to them? I can't imagine every module (or even half the school day) is dedicated solely to these tests.

It depends on the year...but if you want to see the standards you can find them on the Department of Education site. Different districts set it up (test prep) different ways I couldn't begin to tell you how all of them work nor do I pretend to know. I know what we are told in the program and that is that every year the districts are forcing creativity out and a more streamlined approach focusing on the basics that are set by the standards.

Look I am not against grad standards or standardized tests in and of themselves because they are important. Where it becomes a problem is when you tie funding into them. Districts are hamstrung anyways moneywise for various reasons but if their school has students that underperform the state (or Fed Govt.) will appropriate less money to them until they bring the scores up. Now lets say you are the superintendent of a district and you already have budget issues what are you going to do? You can let things go as is and risk your funding or you can push to reform the curriculum in hopes of reversing the trend and getting more money. I know what I would be inclined to do...

The intentions of this stuff are great but it is the unintended consequences that push everything back. It is like in the book Freakanomics...when teacher's tenure or job status are placed in the hands of the students based on their grades, teachers are going to cheat and give the students higher grades to help themselves. If you make the MCAs the driving force behind how a district gets funding districts are going to stress the MCAs above all else.

 

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Posted this in the Obama thread and thought it should be included here as well:

This article, written by an owner of a very successful health care company, makes the argument that tax deductible health care plans are bad. One of the benefits of government run health care would be an increase in start-up companies since the people starting the companies wouldn't have to worry about health care. Would probably create more jobs as well.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101...alth-care.html

 

[trucker]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Posted this in the Obama thread and thought it should be included here as well:

This article, written by an owner of a very successful health care company, makes the argument that tax deductible health care plans are bad. One of the benefits of government run health care would be an increase in start-up companies since the people starting the companies wouldn't have to worry about health care. Would probably create more jobs as well.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20091101...alth-care.html

Sorry, that link doesn't work. If you really want to see the article go to inc.com and type "How To Fix Health Care" into the search engine. Here's an excerpt:

What's the biggest flaw of the current system?

The fact that we have employers central to our system is the biggest problem. And it exists this way all because of a historical accident. During World War II, companies couldn't raise wages to attract workers, so they began offering health insurance. The IRS then determined companies could consider that a business expense rather than counting it toward personal income. The result is that people now know more about their car- or homeowner's-insurance plan than they do about their health insurance. They are insulated from the true cost of their heath care.

What changes would you make to get people more involved?

I would get the employers out of the middle. I would convert existing benefits into wages that would be taxed as income. I would then impose a mandate where every individual would need to purchase an insurance plan, where those who can't afford it would get a voucher, similar to how Medicaid works. This would turn everyone into active consumers, where they would shop around for the best plan for them. It also wouldn't put the insurance companies out of business. They would simply need to shift from offering plans aimed at groups to plans based on the needs of individuals.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I would get the employers out of the middle. I would convert existing benefits into wages that would be taxed as income. I would then impose a mandate where every individual would need to purchase an insurance plan, where those who can't afford it would get a voucher, similar to how Medicaid works. This would turn everyone into active consumers, where they would shop around for the best plan for them. It also wouldn't put the insurance companies out of business. They would simply need to shift from offering plans aimed at groups to plans based on the needs of individuals.

Sounds kind of like McCain's plan. Though he gave a tax credit to everyone.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Sounds kind of like McCain's plan. Though he gave a tax credit to everyone.

I don't recall McCain advocating the elimination of employer based insurance??? I'm also not sure he advocated a requirement that all Americans get insurance, as that seems to be the complaint du jour right now amongst the righty set....

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I don't recall McCain advocating the elimination of employer based insurance??? ....

He did

I'm also not sure he advocated a requirement that all Americans get insurance, as that seems to be the complaint du jour right now amongst the righty set....

He didn't. Hence why I said it was like his plan, but not the same.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

He did



He didn't. Hence why I said it was like his plan, but not the same.

He seems to be taking some money away from employer tax deductions for health care which is a bit different than trucker's proposal but as you say, you said "like" and not "the same as" so no big deal.

The problem for both McCain's plan, and the current GOP plan, is that it does nothing to lower the amount of uninsured in the country, which was one of the dual goals of the Dem plan.

http://www.urban.org/publications/411755.html

 

[leswp1]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Why does this need to be about McCain? I think the post had good points. It seems silly to be splitting hairs over whether McCain proposed something or not.

 

[Rover]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Why does this need to be about McCain? I think the post had good points. It seems silly to be splitting hairs over whether McCain proposed something or not.

Its not about McCain. I found trucker's post interesting myself. However, some questions I have about his proposal would be the same as the ones regarding McCain's.

For example, what I often say about people shopping for their own insurance is that I'm concerned about 1) a logistical nightmare, and 2) scams.

Point 1 is what I've always asked about people shopping around amongst 1000 insurance carriers. How do the medical providers handle that, when nowadays they're probably used to dealing with only a handful of insurance companies that operate in their area, not to mention the multitude of different plans each individual might carry that's specific to them. Remember, even with car insurance companies there's not this diverse a range of providers and policy options since that industry is regulated state by state. I'd be concerned that the cost of paperwork would negate any other savings, and also wonder if employers would truly pass on the savings from not funding health insurance to their employees via higher salaries unless mandated to.

Point 2 also needs consideration. Right now state regulators are overseeing a few companies. Unless the Feds are somehow in the mix, they suddenly need to oversee 1000 companies selling insurance to their citizens. I'm thinking they won't be able to handle that. I therefore see some potential to turn the health insurance industry into the credit card industry, as in what you sign up for might not end up being what you have when the fine print is read back to you. Also be mindful that not everybody in the country is college educated, or even if they are may have trouble with the legalese of so many solicitations for their business.....

So, I'm not against the idea, I'm just curious what the answer is to some of these concerns.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

Also be mindful that not everybody in the country is college educated, or even if they are may have trouble with the legalese of so many solicitations for their business.....

So, I'm not against the idea, I'm just curious what the answer is to some of these concerns.

I'm on board with a lot of the rest of your post, but the consumers have to accept responsibility for reading fine print before they sign, no matter how moronic they are.

I'd still like to believe that the competition would eventually lead to higher quality, but I suppose that'd be a crap shoot.

 

[joecct]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

I'm on board with a lot of the rest of your post, but the consumers have to accept responsibility for reading fine print before they sign, no matter how moronic they are.

Not any more! The nanny state will take care of you.

 

[Patman]

Re: Health Care Reform - 1/6 of the Economy Up for Grabs

the dems drive me absolutely nuts... how can you figure we can pass a health care bill that we won't be able to afford as a nation and then on top of that pass cap and trade and amnesty. Either one of those will break the back of our system... both is "game over" where we become like Mexico (would like to say Guatemala... but functionally it'd be Mexico) where you have a ruling elite class and then every other poor guy wallows in the muck. You'd think Dems see Americans more as pets than humans.

How can you consider that moral? How can you consider that better? How can you even dare call it righteous? The math doesn't work because you dream it to be or you consider it moral to be so. You'd think the party that claims the mantle of science would be able to add a few numbers together.