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He says he's not dead.

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Re: He says he's not dead.

Old Pio said:
I've always felt like Joe was unlucky, he was in his prime when Ali was in his. In a slightly different era, Joe would have been recognized as one of the all time greats. That left hook of his was devastating. Just ask Ali, it put him on his a*s in Madison Square Garden. On the other hand, with the two of them around at the same time, we got three classic fights out of the deal. I hope God watches over Joe.

RIP Andy Rooney
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Agree with most of that-but i always felt that having Ali around actually made Frazier famous. I just don't think the rest of the heavyweights around would have added to the frazier legend. Besides, once George Foreman arrived-Frazier was just not able to deal with him. Boxing was all about individual matchups and some fighters just cannot evr beat some others. Foreman was a force that Frazier could not stand up against. But you are so right-the 3 classic fights with Ali were all gold.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

DrDemento said:
Agree with most of that-but i always felt that having Ali around actually made Frazier famous. I just don't think the rest of the heavyweights around would have added to the frazier legend. Besides, once George Foreman arrived-Frazier was just not able to deal with him. Boxing was all about individual matchups and some fighters just cannot evr beat some others. Foreman was a forc
e that Frazier could not stand up against. But you are so right-the 3 classic fights with Ali were all gold.
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Ali just changed things forever. He put lots of money in the pockets of the guys he fought. Half the crowd wanted him to win. The other half wanted him dead. That first fight with Frazier was unlike anything I've ever seen. Ali had been strippped of his title for refusing to be drafted and the country was divided along those lines about the fight. Joe became the fighter for the "establishment," Ali for the kids who were protesting the war. You're old enough to remember the hype and glamor of the fight. Every celebrity worth his salt was there.
I agree, but the for the three fights against Ali, Joe probably would have been regarded as a very good, not very colorful fighter. Next to Ali, everybody lacked "color." Joe Louis had his "bum of the month club, (Tony Galento?)" and Marciano fought some real bozos, but isn't that true about every great fighter? A few headline matches, the rest just tuneups? In Joe's case, the three matchups against Ali make everybody's list of great fights. Anyway, we're agreed that Joe was very, very good. And he's facing his toughest opponant now.

Little Ali related annecdote. You remember Ken Norton, and what a stunning physical speciman he was. The story is that Norton was training for a fight against Ali. And he was out running early one morning when a car load of Klan types stopped and wanted some trouble. The story is, they got all the trouble they could handle.
 
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Re: He says he's not dead.

Old Pio said:
Ali just changed things forever. He put lots of money in the pockets of the guys he fought. Half the crowd wanted him to win. The other half wanted him dead. That first fight with Frazier was unlike anything I've ever seen. Ali had been strippped of his title for refusing to be drafted and the country was divided along those lines about the fight. Joe became the fighter for the "establishment," Ali for the kids who were protesting the war. You're old enough to remember the hype and glamor of the fight. Every celebrity worth his salt was there.
I agree, but the for the three fights against Ali, Joe probably would have been regarded as a very good, not very colorful fighter. Next to Ali, everybody lacked "color." Joe Louis had his "bum of the month club, (Tony Galento?)" and Marciano fought some real bozos, but isn't that true about every great fighter? A few headline matches, the rest just tuneups? In Joe's case, the three matchups against Ali make everybody's list of great fights. Anyway, we're agreed that Joe was very, very good. And he's facing his toughest opponant now.

Little Ali related annecdote. You remember Ken Norton, and what a stunning physical speciman he was. The story is that Norton was training for a fight against Ali. And he was out running early one morning when a car load of Klan types stopped and wanted some trouble. The story is, they got all the trouble they could handle.
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Ali and Frazier had to fight a few pretty good fighters each. But as you say their fights against each other just made each of them bigger than life. In March 1985 Jenny and I flew back from Florida and had the great pleasure to sit next to Larry Holmes and his entire entourage. I got to talk to him in the galley of the plane for about 3 hours. I brought up the topic to him of the toughest fighters he ever faced or watched. He said the absolute toughest-for the first 2 rounds of any fight-was Ernie(the acorn) Shavers. Ernie had this incredible stat of knocking virtually everyone out in the first or second round. No one could take his punch. I saw him hit Holmes early in their fight and Holmes was just gone-standing up-holding on-for 3 rounds. When i asked him about it-he said that he never could remember what happened to him for a couple of rounds after the hardest hit he ever took in the first round. He was basically on queer street. But he added, he came back to get Shavers who was known to punch himself out if he was not able to KO you early. Holmes felt at that time that Frazier was a better pure heavyweight than Ali was-since Ali started out in a lower weight class and moved up. He felt Frazier hit just so much harder than Ali but that Ali was just so good at figuring out what he needed to do against any opponent to get him off guard and land the preponderence of effective punches against anyone. IMHO those were the glory days of heavyweight boxing-we have not seen anything like it since and perhaps never will.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

DrDemento said:
Ali and Frazier had to fight a few pretty good fighters each. But as you say their fights against each other just made each of them bigger than life. In March 1985 Jenny and I flew back from Florida and had the great pleasure to sit next to Larry Holmes and his entire entourage. I got to talk to him in the galley of the plane for about 3 hours. I brought up the topic to him of the toughest fighters he ever faced or watched. He said the absolute toughest-for the first 2 rounds of any fight-was Ernie(the acorn) Shavers. Ernie had this incredible stat of knocking virtually everyone out in the first or second round. No one could take his punch. I saw him hit Holmes early in their fight and Holmes was just gone-standing up-holding on-for 3 rounds. When i asked him about it-he said that he never could remember what happened to him for a couple of rounds after the hardest hit he ever took in the first round. He was basically on queer street. But he added, he came back to get Shavers who was known to punch himself out if he was not able to KO you early. Holmes felt at that time that Frazier was a better pure heavyweight than Ali was-since Ali started out in a lower weight class and moved up. He felt Frazier hit just so much harder than Ali but that Ali was just so good at figuring out what he needed to do against any opponent to get him off guard and land the preponderence of effective punches against anyone. IMHO those were the glory days of heavyweight boxing-we have not seen anything like it since and perhaps never will.
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Interesting. Must have been great to talk to Larry. I've always been attracted to "bad boys," and was a big fan of Sonny Liston. We'll never know how good he was because he didn't get a shot until well into his 30's. He may have been 37 or 38 when he lost to Ali in Miami. 'Course what should have been his prime years he was in prison. A really scary Liston story from his days as a mob "collector." He got into a beef with a St. Louis cop, who tried to club him into submission. Sonny took the club away from the cop and hit him across the thigh, breaking the bone. You're a doctor, how much force does THAT take? Anyway, Liston was the real thing. I've always said if he and Mike Tyson wound up as bunkmates in prison, Tyson would be grabbing his ankles inside of an hour.

Liston once fought 7 or 8 rounds with a broken jaw against Cleveland Williams and had never been knocked down, let alone out. Yet when Ali hit him with a jab in Lewiston, ME, Sonny went down like a gut shot mule. I agree with Marciano, that stunk. I believe Sonny just realized he was never gonna beat that kid, so he went down. If you remember, Joe Walcott was the referee, and he lost track of the count. So Liston got up and they started fighting again. It took Nat Fleisher of Ring magazine, waving furiously from ring side to alert Joe that the fight was over. What a circus. Arena full of "fruit of Islam" thugs. As great as the Ali-Frazier fights were, the second Ali-Liston fight was the polar opposite. Still, I really liked Sonny. As I say, we'll never know how good he really was.
 
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Re: He says he's not dead.

Old Pio said:
Interesting. Must have been great to talk to Larry. I've always been attracted to "bad boys," and was a big fan of Sonny Liston. We'll never know how good he was because he didn't get a shot until well into his 30's. He may have been 37 or 38 when he lost to Ali in Miami. 'Course what should have been his prime years he was in prison. A really scary Liston story from his days as a mob "collector." He got into a beef with a St. Louis cop, who tried to club him into submission. Sonny took the club away from the cop and hit him across the thigh, breaking the bone. You're a doctor, how much force does THAT take? Anyway, Liston was the real thing. I've always said if he and Mike Tyson wound up as bunkmates in prison, Tyson would be grabbing his ankles inside of an hour.

Liston once fought 7 or 8 rounds with a broken jaw against Cleveland Williams and had never been knocked down, let alone out. Yet when Ali hit him with a jab in Lewiston, ME, Sonny went down like a gut shot mule. I agree with Marciano, that stunk. I believe Sonny just realized he was never gonna beat that kid, so he went down. If you remember, Joe Walcott was the referee, and he lost track of the count. So Liston got up and they started fighting again. It took Nat Fleisher of Ring magazine, waving furiously from ring side to alert Joe that the fight was over. What a circus. Arena full of "fruit of Islam" thugs. As great as the Ali-Frazier fights were, the second Ali-Liston fight was the polar opposite. Still, I really liked Sonny. As I say, we'll never know how good he really was.
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I too felt he could have been one of the best-he was downright scary-at leat Floyd Patterson was shaking about him and did not want to fight him. Saw him fight Cleveland Williams on a video highlight show on TV. I felt the first Ali fight was legit-and he just punched himself out early and was not in shape to go longer so he sat on the stool and quit. The second fight smelled from the national anthem on. I think Robert Goulet forgot the words. No way he goes down from that so-called Anchor Punch taught to Ali by Steppin Fetchit. I saw some old fight films where Liston knocked some guys out with a jab-he had an exceptionally long reach for his jab.
BTW Jenny and I stayed in contact with Holmes for awhile-he consulted me about some facial surgery repairs for some areas that they did not attend to properly from earlier fights. He was always an absolute gentleman and a savvy busnessman owning several establishments in his hometown of Easton Pa which is about an hour from us. He did not come across to us as the Easton Assassin.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

DrDemento said:
I too felt he could have been one of the best-he was downright scary-at leat Floyd Patterson was shaking about him and did not want to fight him. Saw him fight Cleveland Williams on a video highlight show on TV. I felt the first Ali fight was legit-and he just punched himself out early and was not in shape to go longer so he sat on the stool and quit. The second fight smelled from the national anthem on. I think Robert Goulet forgot the words. No way he goes down from that so-called Anchor Punch taught to Ali by Steppin Fetchit. I saw some old fight films where Liston knocked some guys out with a jab-he had an exceptionally long reach for his jab.
BTW Jenny and I stayed in contact with Holmes for awhile-he consulted me about some facial surgery repairs for some areas that they did not attend to properly from earlier fights. He was always an absolute gentleman and a savvy busnessman owning several establishments in his hometown of Easton Pa which is about an hour from us. He did not come across to us as the Easton Assassin.
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That's good to know. So many of them, including the all time greats, wind up with nothing. Think of poor Joe Louis, who went to his grave owing money to the IRS he could never repay. Back to Liston. He had a jab that could knock out a mule And exceptionally long arms. Cus Damato kept Floyd Patterson (who was really a light heavy) away from Liston as long as he could. But just remember, the Liston who kayoed Patterson twice in the first round was probably a decade past his prime. Imagine Sonny at 28, not 38. He always seemed like a sad figure to me. And he didn't exactly have Boy Scouts behind him. His manager was "Blinky" Palermo! There was a fire in the courthouse in the county where Sonny was born (and they weren't too concerned about records for black births anyway) and his records were apparantly destroyed. Anyone who believed that "anchor punch" crap and Stepin Fetchit learning the punch from Jack Johnson is more than a little credulous. I remember Wild World of Sports had a special after the fight. Howard, naturally, in the anchor chair. And they asked some prominent boxing types what they thought. Marciano was one of 'em. He hadn't seen the fight. So the taped replay was his first chance, and he essentially said it was a fix. Not that anybody paid Lison to go down. But that Sonny knew at age 37 or 38 he was never gonna beat this kid. And the money was going to be the same even if he did go down in one. So, the guy who'd never been knocked down, let alone kayoed, goes down on a jab, thrown as Ali was moving backwards, away from Liston. I don't think so.

I think you're right about Goulet. I've posted before that the other boxing national anthem embarrassment for me came in the second Patterson/Johanssen fight in Sweden. Some guy from the Swedish national opera company sang their anthem. The Star Spangled Banner was rendered by, wait for it, Eddie Fisher! Judas Priest he was awful, fat, unshaven, and especially when compared to the Swedish dude.
 
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Re: He says he's not dead.

O.P.-I guess we are about the only ones old enough to remember those days. I was a huge fight fan raised on the Friday Night Fights with Jimmy Powers brought to you by Gillette. Every division (and there was just no where near the number we have now) had a single belt to win. There were not a myriad of champions who held different belts in 44 different weight classes. It was fairly common for most kids to know every champion's name. But of course the heavyweights held the most attention. No championship was broadcast live in any fashion-but you could listen to an AM band radio broadcast and just picture in your mind what was going on. Maybe I'm a bit too nostalgic-but I still feel these were the best of times for a kid like me growing up.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

DrDemento said:
O.P.-I guess we are about the only ones old enough to remember those days. I was a huge fight fan raised on the Friday Night Fights with Jimmy Powers brought to you by Gillette. Every division (and there was just no where near the number we have now) had a single belt to win. There were not a myriad of champions who held different belts in 44 different weight classes. It was fairly common for most kids to know every champion's name. But of course the heavyweights held the most attention. No championship was broadcast live in any fashion-but you could listen to an AM band radio broadcast and just picture in your mind what was going on. Maybe I'm a bit too nostalgic-but I still feel these were the best of times for a kid like me growing up.
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With me it was theatre TV. That's where I watched the Patterson/Johanssen fights. It was in the third one of those clashes that Floyd caught Ingo with one of his famous leaping left hooks. I thought Johanssen was dead. Next time you see the film, watch Johanssen's feet twitching. He was as out as anybody gets without permanent damage. Remember Emile Griffith? Marvelous fighter. And Benny Parret made the mistake of suggesting Emile was gay (which perhaps he was). Griffith literally beat him to death on national TV. I will never, ever, criticize a referee for stopping a fight. You make a mistake and somebody's dead.

I've always been of two minds about boxing: I love the great fights and the great fighters. But lots of guys, who are merely good, but not great, wind up on queer street. Take Jerry Quarry. Pretty good fighter. Hopelessly demented now. Why there's even a medical term for punch drunk--dementia pugilistica. Look at the condition Ali is in. One of the two or three greatest fighters of all time, imprisoned in his body. Remember that horrible beating Carmine Basillio took? His eye puffed up about the size of a baseball. How about Archie Moore? Dying his hair to cover up the fact that he was in his 40's, kayoing young European fighters who didn't have a chance. Ironically, Ali was going to be the one fighter who got out of the game with lots of money. A consortium of Louisville businessmen invested in him when he came home from the Olympics. And they were going to watch out for him. Might have worked, too, if not for his involvement with those crooks in the Nation.

Back to bad boys. I watched Roberto Duran pound the living crap out of Ken Buchanan in the Garden to take the lightweight title. Never heard of Duran. The title changed hands on an alleged low blow. Perfet setup for a rematch right? Wrong. Buchanan didn't want any part of getting into the ring with that guy again. Angelo Dundee calls Duran the best lightweight ever. And I believe he's one of only three guys to hold the combined lightweight and welterweight titles simultaneously (Art Ross and Bennie Leonard were the other two). Trouble was, as he put on weight he just got thicker, while a guy like Ray Leonard filled out. Lots of Duran's early fights were carried on CBS on saturday afternoons. He fought a guy named Lou Bizarro (the clip is on youtube) and Bizarro stayed on his bicycle the whole time and wouldn't engage. However, no sooner than Tommy Brookshire said "stick around for this decision, it could be close" than Duran fetched Lou a shot that sent him spinning like a top all the way across the ring. One time after Duran had knocked a guy out for about half an hour in his broken English he said: "next time we fight I keel him." Whoever was translating tried to take the onus off. That Roberto only meant he'd beat the guy again. Duran interrupted: "No, No, No, I keel him." 135 pounds, one scary dude.

Yeah, Friday night fights, with Don Dunphy as I recall. Brought to you by Gillette: "To look sharp and be on the ball. . ."
 
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Re: He says he's not dead.

Old Pio said:
With me it was theatre TV. That's where I watched the Patterson/Johanssen fights. It was in the third one of those clashes that Floyd caught Ingo with one of his famous leaping left hooks. I thought Johanssen was dead. Next time you see the film, watch Johanssen's feet twitching. He was as out as anybody gets without permanent damage. Remember Emile Griffith? Marvelous fighter. And Benny Parret made the mistake of suggesting Emile was gay (which perhaps he was). Griffith literally beat him to death on national TV. I will never, ever, criticize a referee for stopping a fight. You make a mistake and somebody's dead.

I've always been of two minds about boxing: I love the great fights and the great fighters. But lots of guys, who are merely good, but not great, wind up on queer street. Take Jerry Quarry. Pretty good fighter. Hopelessly demented now. Why there's even a medical term for punch drunk--dementia pugilistica. Look at the condition Ali is in. One of the two or three greatest fighters of all time, imprisoned in his body. Remember that horrible beating Carmine Basillio took? His eye puffed up about the size of a baseball. How about Archie Moore? Dying his hair to cover up the fact that he was in his 40's, kayoing young European fighters who didn't have a chance. Ironically, Ali was going to be the one fighter who got out of the game with lots of money. A consortium of Louisville businessmen invested in him when he came home from the Olympics. And they were going to watch out for him. Might have worked, too, if not for his involvement with those crooks in the Nation.

Back to bad boys. I watched Roberto Duran pound the living crap out of Ken Buchanan in the Garden to take the lightweight title. Never heard of Duran. The title changed hands on an alleged low blow. Perfet setup for a rematch right? Wrong. Buchanan didn't want any part of getting into the ring with that guy again. Angelo Dundee calls Duran the best lightweight ever. And I believe he's one of only three guys to hold the combined lightweight and welterweight titles simultaneously (Art Ross and Bennie Leonard were the other two). Trouble was, as he put on weight he just got thicker, while a guy like Ray Leonard filled out. Lots of Duran's early fights were carried on CBS on saturday afternoons. He fought a guy named Lou Bizarro (the clip is on youtube) and Bizarro stayed on his bicycle the whole time and wouldn't engage. However, no sooner than Tommy Brookshire said "stick around for this decision, it could be close" than Duran fetched Lou a shot that sent him spinning like a top all the way across the ring. One time after Duran had knocked a guy out for about half an hour in his broken English he said: "next time we fight I keel him." Whoever was translating tried to take the onus off. That Roberto only meant he'd beat the guy again. Duran interrupted: "No, No, No, I keel him." 135 pounds, one scary dude.

Yeah, Friday night fights, with Don Dunphy as I recall. Brought to you by Gillette: "To look sharp and be on the ball. . ."
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Used to watch them all-saw Basillio spar in a bath house in Coney Island Brooklyn back int he 50's for a fight with I think Gene Fullmer. Man his face looked like he had been through a meat grinder. My dad used to take me to St Nick's Arena in NY and sneak me in (I was underage to go to the fights). Saw some of the best fights as a kid. I recall the Johanssen knock out by patterson (3rd fight) vividly and I thought he was dead. Saw the Benny Kid Paret fight and could not even count the punches landed in that corner from Griffith that ended his life. No excuse for not stopping that one. You mentioned Art Ross-did you by chance mean Barney Ross? There sure were some memorable fighters in the old days. Nowadays i cannot even tell you who wears what belt in what division. I don't even know how many weight classes there are any more.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

DrDemento said:
Used to watch them all-saw Basillio spar in a bath house in Coney Island Brooklyn back int he 50's for a fight with I think Gene Fullmer. Man his face looked like he had been through a meat grinder. My dad used to take me to St Nick's Arena in NY and sneak me in (I was underage to go to the fights). Saw some of the best fights as a kid. I recall the Johanssen knock out by patterson (3rd fight) vividly and I thought he was dead. Saw the Benny Kid Paret fight and could not even count the punches landed in that corner from Griffith that ended his life. No excuse for not stopping that one. You mentioned Art Ross-did you by chance mean Barney Ross? There sure were some memorable fighters in the old days. Nowadays i cannot even tell you who wears what belt in what division. I don't even know how many weight classes there are any more.
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Yeah, Barney Ross, Art Ross played hockey. Living in suburban Chicago, with a chest cutter, no chance he takes me to a gym to watch guys work out. And no chance I'm going on my own. Gene Fullmer. Wasn't he LDS? And such a tough hombre. And he's the one who did the job on Basillio's eye, right? I'm thinking Fullmer had a role in that movie about a combined Canadian/American unit of commandos. William Holden Cliff Robertson. Claude Akins. IIRC, Fullmer played a Canadian logger in the big bar fight scene. I just looked it up: "The Devil's Brigade." Fullmer played the bar tender in the big bar fight scene.

Things are surely different. And not necessarily for the better.
 
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Re: He says he's not dead.

Old Pio said:
Yeah, Barney Ross, Art Ross played hockey. Living in suburban Chicago, with a chest cutter, no chance he takes me to a gym to watch guys work out. And no chance I'm going on my own. Gene Fullmer. Wasn't he LDS? And such a tough hombre. And he's the one who did the job on Basillio's eye, right? I'm thinking Fullmer had a role in that movie about a combined Canadian/American unit of commandos. William Holden Cliff Robertson. Claude Akins. IIRC, Fullmer played a Canadian logger in the big bar fight scene. I just looked it up: "The Devil's Brigade." Fullmer played the bar tender in the big bar fight scene.

Things are surely different. And not necessarily for the better.
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This thread gives me the chance to go back in time and think about those old days-as we lose some of the old timers I grew up watching in sports and movies and even politics. We did not have the instant access in those days we have now-the famous people were just that much more mysterious since you rarely got to see them as TV was in its infancy. Also, much of their private lives were just that-private. You did not hear or see anything anywhere about the famous unless it was for public release. There was no facebook, twitter, television shows like Entertainment Tonight, TMZ etc. Movie idols and sports idols were just that-idols. They were bigger than life and you rarely if ever found out anything negative about them froom th Star or National Enquirer. It made for a very different felling about them-every girl wanted to be Elizabeth taylor and evry boy I suppose wanted to be Mickey Mantle. Me? I just wanted to be John Derek-he really just seemed to get the most fantastic women!!!;)
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

Figures. They're showing a Rocky marathon, and in the first one, Frazier made a cameo before the fight.
 
Re: He says he's not dead.

A touch of class.

Floyd Mayweather: I'll pay for Frazier's funeral

(CBS/AP) Though revered as a legend in the boxing ring, Joe Frazier never had the riches associated with many sports icons - especially later in life.

In fact, despite his declining health, the cash-strapped Frazier was still active on the autograph circuit in the months before he died. In September he went to Las Vegas, where he signed autographs in the lobby of the MGM Grand shortly before Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s fight against Victor Ortiz.

Mayweather must have been impressed by the former champ's effort and his impact on the sport because the welterweight champ has offered to pay for Frazier's funeral services.

After learning that Frazier had died of liver disease on Monday night, Mayweather tweeted: "My condolences go out to the family of the late great Joe Frazier. #TheMoneyTeam will pay for his Funeral services."

Prior to his offer to pay for Frazier's funeral, Mayweather tweeted: "RIP Smokin Joe. .... We lost an all time great tonight."

As the Los Angeles Times notes, this is not the first such gesture from Mayweather. Earlier this year, he paid for the funeral of Southland former world champion Genaro Hernandez.
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