Gulf Oil Spill 2010

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I'm an engineer and my last job was to develop engine ratings. When the EPA mandated the 2010 emission standards, we lost about 20% efficiency. There isn't anything we can do, they're forcing us to run the engine at conditions that simply aren't the most efficient, for the sake of emissions.

I did not know that. That certainly would explain why the Hybrid's and the smart cars don't get the gas mileage they should.

 

[blockski]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

There are lots of trade-offs in everything we do...

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

There are lots of trade-offs in everything we do...

Yep.

I just picked up my car yesterday (2003 Nissan Almera - whoo hoo!), and after shopping around, I can definitively say that European cars are built like tin cans compared with the battle tanks roaming the suburbs of the US. All that extra metal makes the cars safer in crashes (for the occupants, anyway - not the bystanders!), but it has to be accelerated and decelerated each time the car stops, too.

I wonder what the gas prices were the last time there was a major overhaul of crash safety standards in the US? I wonder if the same choices would be made today?

 

[blockski]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I wonder what the gas prices were the last time there was a major overhaul of crash safety standards in the US? I wonder if the same choices would be made today?

It's not directly related to your question, but the New York Times had a great graphic on the changes in gas prices over time compared against vehicle miles traveled per capita in the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2010/05/02/business/02metrics.html?ref=business

It's amazing to see how much we drive march upward, while big swings in gas prices only make a small dent in that travel. That's the product of 50 years of auto-oriented land use and transportation policy, though.

Regarding your original point, I'd also note that despite the increased weight from various safety standards, overall fuel efficiency has improved as well, particularly after the enactment of CAFE standards following the 1980s energy crisis. The somewhat perverse result of increasing efficiency is that without addressing fuel price, the increased efficiency often leads to more VMT and more fuel consumption, not less.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

All that extra metal makes the cars safer in crashes (for the occupants, anyway - not the bystanders!), but it has to be accelerated and decelerated each time the car stops, too.

According to a coworker who worked in automotive safety, the amount/type of metal really doesn't matter at all unless you're going less than 25 mph or so. It's all air bags, crumple zones, and collapsing steering columns.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

part of the increase is that it is ingrained into our culture that commutes are okay. Its not uncommon to see people doing 30-50 mile one way commutes today. Add that the cost of living has gone up, this forces people to find cheaper places to rent which in many instances ( the city for example) do that commute. To me , commutes leave you at the mercy of the Oil gods and tests my sanity - anything more than 10 minutes is not allowed!

Very interesting graphical representation of our commutes though. Thanks for digging that up.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

part of the increase is that it is ingrained into our culture that commutes are okay. Its not uncommon to see people doing 30-50 mile one way commutes today. Add that the cost of living has gone up, this forces people to find cheaper places to rent which in many instances ( the city for example) do that commute. To me , commutes leave you at the mercy of the Oil gods and tests my sanity - anything more than 10 minutes is not allowed!

Very interesting graphical representation of our commutes though. Thanks for digging that up.

That right there. Why anybody would put up with a commute thats more than 45 minutes is beyond me.

 

[blockski]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Nothing like an oil spill to churn out the infographics.

This one from Information is Beautiful:

 

[geezer]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

There are lots of trade-offs in everything we do...

A friend of mine manages a national trucking line. He pointed out that the new emissions requirements in CA (a computerized scrubber that cost some obscene amount to retrofit) was supposed to cut emissions by some percent per gallon burned, but they were doubled by the related increase in diesel consumption anyway to run the scrubber.
Less efficient, more gas consumption, more pollution. D'oh! We better write more laws!

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

A friend of mine manages a national trucking line. He pointed out that the new emissions requirements in CA (a computerized scrubber that cost some obscene amount to retrofit) was supposed to cut emissions by some percent per gallon burned, but they were doubled by the related increase in diesel consumption anyway to run the scrubber.
Less efficient, more gas consumption, more pollution. D'oh! We better write more laws!

New diesel engines in the US have to meet very tight particulate matter regulations (notorious diesel black smoke). In order to do this a diesel particulate filter is used, without getting too technical, and with the intent of staying as far away from proprietary information as possible....The filter is a ceramic filter, similar to a catalytic converter on a car. The problem is, it gets plugged, and you can't just replace it, because it would cost ~$3000 to replace. So it is "regenerated" which means it is burned hot enough to turn all of the soot trapped in the filter into ash, thus freeing up the filter to work again. In order to create the heat to regenerate the filter, fuel is used. Depending on the company and engine, the fuel gets into the exhaust stream in different ways, but the bottom line is unburnt fuel is purposely introduced into the exhaust, then combusted in a catalyst, creating the heat to regenerate the filter. It doesn't take a genius to realize how much of a waste it is to be burning fuel in the exhaust rather than in the cylinder.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

It doesn't take a genius to realize how much of a waste it is to be burning fuel in the exhaust rather than in the cylinder.

It depends what you mean by "waste." Particulate emissions are a real problem, but I don't know nearly enough to say whether it's significant enough to be worth the extra expenditure to cut them back.

 

[blockski]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

It depends what you mean by "waste." Particulate emissions are a real problem, but I don't know nearly enough to say whether it's significant enough to be worth the extra expenditure to cut them back.

Exactly. Trade-offs.

And yes, particulate emissions are a big problem.

 

[brookyone]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I didn't check the entire thread, hope this is not a duplicate. Apologies if it is.

https://acrobat.com/?i=j1wslzYyvBvDcxvV26-ZMg

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Exactly. Trade-offs.

And yes, particulate emissions are a big problem.

Yep, and that is why it bugs me when the same people that complain about emissions complain about fuel economy. You can't have both, at least not until some kind of new technology is developed.

 

[jmh]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

That is sweet corn. I guarantee that isn't going to be ethanol.

It could be nachos, which go well with ethanol.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

It could be nachos, which go well with ethanol.

The closest it will get to nachos is corn-salsa.

Sweet corn is the stuff you eat on the cob and what you find in cans, etc. All of the corn that is used for corn meal, corn flakes, corn starch, tortillas is dry field corn, which is the majority of the corn produced in this country.

 

[jmh]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

The closest it will get to nachos is corn-salsa.

Sweet corn is the stuff you eat on the cob and what you find in cans, etc. All of the corn that is used for corn meal, corn flakes, corn starch, tortillas is dry field corn, which is the majority of the corn produced in this country.

Thanks Captain Spoilsport.

 

[blockski]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Yep, and that is why it bugs me when the same people that complain about emissions complain about fuel economy. You can't have both, at least not until some kind of new technology is developed.

Well, sure you can - you drive less. There! I just lowered your emissions and your fuel consumption!

Of course it's not nearly that easy, but we have to get beyond the idea that we can address these problems with purely technological fixes.

Looking back at the New York Times graph, remember that the increasing VMT is a per capita figure - meaning that population growth doesn't explain that massive increase in the amount we drive.

The fact that it's been increasing slowly but consistently over 50 years is an indication of how we've slowly but consistently changed our infrastructure to favor cars. The simple fact is that cars in general are inefficient. Even if they ran on hopes and dreams, they are not a spatially efficient means of transport. Again, it's all about trade-offs - the personal space and independence that cars offer completely breaks down above certain (relatively low) thresholds, and you get gridlock and traffic jams.

Now, I'm not talking about forcing people out of their cars. I am talking about providing alternatives to cars so that when gas prices spike, people have other ways to get around.

 

[bostonewe]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

part of the increase is that it is ingrained into our culture that commutes are okay. Its not uncommon to see people doing 30-50 mile one way commutes today. Add that the cost of living has gone up, this forces people to find cheaper places to rent which in many instances ( the city for example) do that commute. To me , commutes leave you at the mercy of the Oil gods and tests my sanity - anything more than 10 minutes is not allowed!

Very interesting graphical representation of our commutes though. Thanks for digging that up.

Maybe I'm spoiled by living in a city with a pretty far-ranging public transportation system, but long commutes via public transportation aren't bad. I commute 90 minutes each way to school on the T/bus and spend the time reading or studying. I don't have to worry about traffic, driving, fuel costs, etc. Now I'm sure people don't relish the idea of a 90 minute commute, but 60$ a month for a T pass as opposed to whatever the cost of gas would be + parking makes the travel worth it, especially since it gives me free time to myself. Given this, I'd like to see a greater investment in public transportation to the suburbs of major cities.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Ok, you know what? I googled corn and pasted the first picture that came up. Thanks for the clarification...

I endure a 45+ commute every day. It sucks but what are you going to do?