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Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

amherstblackbear said:
This isn't Sid Meier's "Public Policy IV." We can't revert to a prior save point and experiment with an alternative future. The subsidies that blockski refers to have been made over the course of a century, and can't be undone easily (if at all).
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You mean the politics of it are difficult. It wouldn't be so difficult if people decided to focus in that manner. Why should we be throwing up crap upon crap then? If its inefficient then it doesn't work and we're just propping up the system. Further isn't that the issue... the propping up of an unsustainable system? Is it really the most politically obvious goal is to jack up gas to $10 then to break the subsidy train. Give me a break. The desire to jack up gas is a social desire against our own profligate nature. The idea is that we're wasteful and now we should be brought to heed. On the other hand eliminating subsidies would just bring us more towards the natural state. And lets face it, wouldn't these same people be hurt by $10 gas. Why is a very large gas price more the solution than to fix our institutions?

The problem about things is that people lack the will to do what is obvious and honest... instead we have to reach for a large omnibus fix because its politically easier to go large (universal health care) because you build a movement. To be frank, we're to **** weak to fix the problem but some how strong enough to flip to the scenario on its head. Not sure why things work like that but it does.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Patman said:
ok then... then lets remove the subsidies for this or that and let the natural solution win out. What you're saying is that we should INTENTIONALLY make gas $10 a gallon which will cripple our society and our nation for a direct measure of social control... any "solution" that would come from the $10 a gallon gas would still be 15 years down the road.
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Wow, you can't read a lick. I offered up the super-specific policy proposal to "take the pain" now. The notion being that gas will be that expensive sooner or later, and we'd better do all we can to prepare for it now.

If you couldn't parse that out, the $10 number was a reference to peak oil and the implications that will have. The Department of Defense is certainly concerned.

But if you want to keep the argument between yourself and what you think I said going, be my guest.

Meanwhile we already have some tools, though not many, which would reduce our load on costs. Nuclear power would do it... loosening safety standards on cars down to Euro levels would make the cars weigh less and thus more MPG.

Funny though... I don't remember much people who are in favor of 10 dollar gas being also in favor of letting the banks fail which would have had a severe impact, last nowhere near as long, and leave us better economically in the long run.

Bottom line though, you've promoted various ideas that come within a particular way societies should be organized. As far as I can tell its focused on compact, organized, mega-cities focused entirely upon urban culture and the rest of the nation is then to be networked by a rail system. This whole process is not a small thing with small costs... its a national system upheaval. It seems to me that this solution is to be dictated once one has the political gears in place as opposed to be argued with the population. I don't trust that. I won't apologize for acting in that way.
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Dictated? What kind of dictation was the Interstate Highway System?

You're right on one thing - it's not going to be an easy process. All the more reason to get started right now when we can plan and implement from a flexible position, rather than being forced into change when we've got massive oil price spikes.

My interest is to invest in infrastructure that makes dense, urban living possible. That way, people will have a choice. Hell, as it is today, people that have the choice often opt for urban places anyway - the idea that you can walk to the store instead of driving is nice.

I'd also point out that the densest city in the US - New York - is two things. 1, the dense, efficient use of land is far more of a product of capitalism and markets than any suburban subdivision. 2, it is far better suited to survive and thrive in a world of high priced oil, thanks to that density and transportation systems that do not rely on oil.

No one is going to force anyone to move from their homes - but we shouldn't be forced to subsidize them, either.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

blockski said:
I'm just glad that my city doesn't require a car to get around - it should be positioned quite well to handle gas price spikes.
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Unless the trucks that deliver food and goods to your city run on solar, you're just as screwed as the rest of us. :p
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

blockski said:
I'd also point out that the densest city in the US - New York - is two things. 1, the dense, efficient use of land is far more of a product of capitalism and markets than any suburban subdivision. 2, it is far better suited to survive and thrive in a world of high priced oil, thanks to that density and transportation systems that do not rely on oil.

No one is going to force anyone to move from their homes - but we shouldn't be forced to subsidize them, either.
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The problem is that those people have to eat...

Wait. I know the solution! The Death Panels will execute all the "Real Americans" and turn them into Soylent Green. Perfect!
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Priceless said:
The problem is that those people have to eat...

Wait. I know the solution! The Death Panels will execute all the "Real Americans" and turn them into Soylent Green. Perfect!
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Hey, we can use the illegal immigrants that are caught because of AZ's new law! BRILLIANT!!!!
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

WeWantMore said:
So, you're saying that BP won't feel any impact at all if people choose to go to Mobil stations instead of BP?
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Maybe, but they're still going to sell product. Its more likely to kill dealers of BP than it is BP themselves
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

walrus said:
Maybe, but they're still going to sell product. Its more likely to kill dealers of BP than it is BP themselves
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I've heard that of every gallon sold, station owners make pennies. Where they make their profit is on the in-store stuff, snacks, newspapers, coffee, etc.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

WeWantMore said:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've heard that of every gallon sold, station owners make pennies. Where they make their profit is on the in-store stuff, snacks, newspapers, coffee, etc.
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That depends on the volume of the location. pennies when you sell millions means profit. They certainly make more percentage wise on the other items
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Craig P. said:
:confused: CO2 doesn't burn. In fact, it doesn't do anything without investing energy in some form or another.
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The carbon cycle involves plants absorbing CO2 and Humans releasing the CO2 from burning the biomass. Oil is just really old biomass. Problem is, we are introducing CO2 into the environment that took millions of years to make within a very short time period. Think if you could create a organism that takes up CO2 in order to grow, than burn it - the effective net carbon cycle in that ( not counting energy to do all the work) would be zero.

The technology isn't proven yet, and would cost a lot more than an equivalent barrel of petrol.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

unh_hockey said:
The carbon cycle involves plants absorbing CO2 and Humans releasing the CO2 from burning the biomass. Oil is just really old biomass. Problem is, we are introducing CO2 into the environment that took millions of years to make within a very short time period. Think if you could create a organism that takes up CO2 in order to grow, than burn it - the effective net carbon cycle in that ( not counting energy to do all the work) would be zero.

The technology isn't proven yet, and would cost a lot more than an equivalent barrel of petrol.
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Don't all living animals release CO2?? How much to they (us) release in relation to inanimate things?
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

unh_hockey said:
Think if you could create a organism that takes up CO2 in order to grow, than burn it - the effective net carbon cycle in that ( not counting energy to do all the work) would be zero.

The technology isn't proven yet, and would cost a lot more than an equivalent barrel of petrol.
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If only such a thing existed.... ;)

corn.jpg
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

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Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Laugh if you want, but if you could expand the Segueway technology to cars.....

But alas, just follow the dollar (read: oil lobbies).
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Brenthoven said:
Laugh if you want, but if you could expand the Segueway technology to cars.....

But alas, just follow the dollar (read: oil lobbies).
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you know, as much as you say that there are lot of little one off companies doing some weird stuff.... and even some of the Japanese mainstream companies are treading with some weird stuff.

Hybrids massively disappointed me... they promised 80 mpg... they're delivering something much worse than a Geo from the late 1980s early 1990s (or whatever car it was getting 52 highway). Makes you just shake your head....

For that matter... for all this talk of the auto/oil conspiracy... if that were true do you think Chrystler and GM would have gone bankrupt? Its a two way street.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

dxmnkd316 said:
I never said anything about the efficacy of said technology. I think what you're looking for is switchgrass ethanol or algae ethanol. Both have quite a bit of promise.
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True. Corn has proven viable, but still believe that the initiative will fail. Takes up too much useful land and the yields just aren't that good. Microalgae, once we figure out lipid triggers and yield optimization on the large scale will blow corn ethanol out of the picture entirely. A bit of a detraction at hand, but the overall goal here is to offset the use of petrol to make it last longer. Despite the promise, that doesn't mean any less offshore drilling and incidents like this :(
 
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