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Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I'm glad you work for a company that seeks to avoid fines and lawsuits. For many, that's just a cost of doing business. For example, in 2006 the Crandall Canyon mine was cited for 64 safety violations. For that, they paid the whopping fine of $12,000. In 2007, the mine collapsed killing six workers. Three rescuers were killed by a subsequent collapse. Minutes of a meeting from March 2007 show the CEO knew about the problems, but he took no action. The cost for killing nine people? $1.85 million for the company, not a dime for the CEO; certainly no jail time for the deaths of nine people.
So was the collapse related to the 64 violations or were their 64 electrical etc violations?
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

So was the collapse related to the 64 violations or were their 64 electrical etc violations?

I don't know how many of the violations led directly to the collapse.

On July 24th, 2008 MSHA announced its highest penalty for coal mine safety violations, $1.85 million, for the collapse. The government fined General Resources, $1.34 million "for violations that directly contributed to the deaths of six miners last year," plus nearly $300,000 for other violations. Richard E. Stickler, the government's top mine safety official said "It was not — and I repeat, it was not — a natural occurring earthquake."
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Not really. Every commercial airplane does exactly that for thousands of pieces of equipment on airplanes on a continuous (not daily) basis. We use fault trees, functional hazard analysis, failure modes and effects criticality analysis, etc to root out areas where danger could be lurking in the system designs and then address those with built-in-test monitoring by the system control computers, redundancy, procedural checks on an appropriate periodic basis, etc. This information is prioritized and provided real-time to the pilots via an EICAS (Engine Indication and Crew Alerting System) display.

Sure, performing all that work is expensive (someone has to pay my salary!), but is nowhere near the cost of the consequences of not doing it. Given the level of demand for oil, the public would definitely pay the additional pennies per gallon that it would take to double or triple (whatever that means) the safety precautions and equipment monitoring provisions on every platform.

Of course, no matter how many precautions you take, you can still have a bad day. Black swans can (by definition) never be eliminated.

If you don't think these sites don't have those monitoring systems, you're kidding yourself. Read up on a distributed control system (DCS) and you'll see what I mean. Every instrument, control valve, pump, tank, etc. that is monitored is generally fed back to the DCS.

Regarding individual analyses and safety reviews, sit through a process hazard analysis for a plant start-up and you'll see. I sat through one on a single mixer, a couple of pumps, and a new powder handling system. It took days.

Testing individual components is fine on something as small and as RELATIVELY (please, reread that word because I know I'm going to catch flak for it) simple things as a commercial jet. Ever walk through a small chemical plant? What about a very large one? I have. They are infinitely complex. It's truly amazing how large these things are. Plus they already have these monitoring systems in place. They do monitor the processes. Disasters still happen because parts fail, humans fail, and sometimes it's just an act of God.

Adding to the level of complexity, an oil rig is only ONE site in the long journey gas takes to be made. And gas is only one product that is produced from oil. All of those would increase in price. And unlike an airplane, you don't get shutdowns every few hours. You get them weeks or months (and in many cases such as ethanol plants) even a full year apart.

No, it would not take pennies, it would take far more than that if we're going to force them to test every critical instrument, valve, piece of equipment, etc. (which is what I'm talking about, not just a few, but all of them).

I'm not trying to diminish the fact that planes are complex machines but we need to put it into perspective just how complex these sites are.

Edit: Dammit all... I don't like defending the oil industry but it's my bread and butter when it comes to employers. Safety does need to improve. I'm not trying to go against that. I'm just trying to respond to someone that said we needed to put the CEO in jail, check every valve daily, and the company should be forced into bankruptcy. I asked her how she felt about the people who work there that aren't involved in the operations of the processes. The secretaries, the research scientists, etc. She didn't care.
 
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Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

If you don't think these sites don't have those monitoring systems, you're kidding yourself. Read up on a distributed control system (DCS) and you'll see what I mean. Every instrument, control valve, pump, tank, etc. that is monitored is generally fed back to the DCS.

Regarding individual analyses and safety reviews, sit through a process hazard analysis for a plant start-up and you'll see. I sat through one on a single mixer, a couple of pumps, and a new powder handling system. It took days.

Testing individual components is fine on something as small and as RELATIVELY (please, reread that word because I know I'm going to catch flak for it) simple things as a commercial jet. Ever walk through a small chemical plant? What about a very large one? I have. They are infinitely complex. It's truly amazing how large these things are. Plus they already have these monitoring systems in place. They do monitor the processes. Disasters still happen because parts fail, humans fail, and sometimes it's just an act of God.

Adding to the level of complexity, an oil rig is only ONE site in the long journey gas takes to be made. And gas is only one product that is produced from oil. All of those would increase in price. And unlike an airplane, you don't get shutdowns every few hours. You get them weeks or months (and in many cases such as ethanol plants) even a full year apart.

No, it would not take pennies, it would take far more than that if we're going to force them to test every critical instrument, valve, piece of equipment, etc. (which is what I'm talking about, not just a few, but all of them).

I'm not trying to diminish the fact that planes are complex machines but we need to put it into perspective just how complex these sites are.

Edit: Dammit all... I don't like defending the oil industry but it's my bread and butter when it comes to employers. Safety does need to improve. I'm not trying to go against that. I'm just trying to respond to someone that said we needed to put the CEO in jail, check every valve daily, and the company should be forced into bankruptcy. I asked her how she felt about the people who work there that aren't involved in the operations of the processes. The secretaries, the research scientists, etc. She didn't care.

So which is it? You argue that the monitoring systems are in place, and then you argue that it would be too expensive to do it.

Clearly, I know that rigs, refineries, chemical plants, etc have extensive monitoring and control systems (In fact, my father worked for Eastman Chemical for 32 years, so yes, I have spent quite a bit of time in and around large chemical plants). The only question is where to draw the line - how much is enough, and how much wouldn't materially affect the safety of the system? Clearly, what they've been doing thus far is not enough.

And finally, you're right that you're going to catch flak regarding complexity. You are nuts if you think a chemical plant is as complex as an airplane. The next time your chemical plant pulls 4 Gs, weighs only 200,000 lbs, can operate upside down, can go off the grid, can travel around the world, and operate at elevations from sea level to 40,000 ft, let me know. Oh, and then make it sufficiently automated that it can be operated by a crew of 2. The 777 has more than 1 million parts - in each engine.

An airplane design review takes at least 6 months, and they do it twice: once to review all the interlocking requirements between the components and systems, and a second time to review the actual designs once they are done. Go through that process and then you'll see. Boeing is spending ~$16B to design the 787, and the most expensive oil platform ever was $3B.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

So which is it? You argue that the monitoring systems are in place, and then you argue that it would be too expensive to do it.

Clearly, I know that rigs, refineries, chemical plants, etc have extensive monitoring and control systems (In fact, my father worked for Eastman Chemical for 32 years, so yes, I have spent quite a bit of time in and around large chemical plants). The only question is where to draw the line - how much is enough, and how much wouldn't materially affect the safety of the system? Clearly, what they've been doing thus far is not enough.

And finally, you're right that you're going to catch flak regarding complexity. You are nuts if you think a chemical plant is as complex as an airplane. The next time your chemical plant pulls 4 Gs, weighs only 200,000 lbs, can operate upside down, can go off the grid, can travel around the world, and operate at elevations from sea level to 40,000 ft, let me know. Oh, and then make it sufficiently automated that it can be operated by a crew of 2. The 777 has more than 1 million parts - in each engine.

An airplane design review takes at least 6 months, and they do it twice: once to review all the interlocking requirements between the components and systems, and a second time to review the actual designs once they are done. Go through that process and then you'll see. Boeing is spending ~$16B to design the 787, and the most expensive oil platform ever was $3B.

No, I argued that they don't test EVERY part. It's like telling them to x-ray test every weld every day. Even the aircraft industry doesn't do that. They do, however, perform that on a regular basis.

We're just getting into a dick measuring contest regarding the complexity. So there's no point in arguing this. YOu think one thing I think another.

Yes, I'm aware a design review takes that long. I stated that a simple mixer and pump system took a couple days to complete. A safety review of a major chemical PLANT easily takes six months to a year. I'm not just talking oil platforms.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I don't even know how you would test a rupture disc or PSV every day. For one thing a rupture disc is a one-time-use thing (once it's ruptured, it has to be replaced). For another, the raison d'etre for both items is to keep pressure in process equipment from exceeding the design limits of the equipment. How are you supposed to test that with the process online? They should be and, as far as I know, are inspected regularly to make sure that there are no apparent issues that would keep them from operating correctly in the event that they were needed.

Which is not to say that all is rosy on the safety front. I've heard something about BP getting smacked with a big fine from OSHA for pressure relief systems issues.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

I don't even know how you would test a rupture disc or PSV every day. For one thing a rupture disc is a one-time-use thing (once it's ruptured, it has to be replaced). For another, the raison d'etre for both items is to keep pressure in process equipment from exceeding the design limits of the equipment. How are you supposed to test that with the process online? They should be and, as far as I know, are inspected regularly to make sure that there are no apparent issues that would keep them from operating correctly in the event that they were needed.

Which is not to say that all is rosy on the safety front. I've heard something about BP getting smacked with a big fine from OSHA for pressure relief systems issues.

That's EXACTLY what I'm getting at. You'd have to shut down the process and replace them. And believe me, they aren't cheap. Not at all.

Not only that, but how do you test one of those a mile under the ocean surface on a daily basis? It's lunacy.

That being said, they do need to improve their safety. BP has a terrible track record.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

That's EXACTLY what I'm getting at. You'd have to shut down the process and replace them. And believe me, they aren't cheap. Not at all.

Not only that, but how do you test one of those a mile under the ocean surface on a daily basis? It's lunacy.
Which is exactly what I've been getting at. If you want a safe system, it is unacceptable for the design to include parts - especially critical parts - that cannot be tested. Burst disks haven't been used on airplanes in ~30 years for exactly these reasons. If a rupture disk pressure relief can't be tested (or even inspected), then it should be replaced by a non-destructing pressure relief valve that can be tested. Oh, but it can't be tested because the system is under pressure? Then you have to include a redundant pressure relief valve, and mechanisms for isolating each of them from the system pressure while they are being tested. It's a mile down? Well, then you have to run a line all the way from the surface down to the valve so that you can apply the pressure needed to test the valve. Etc, etc. These concepts aren't rocket science - it's purely an economic question of whether to include them in the design or not.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

incredible. the US Congress has achieved the impossible. they've made me feel sorry for Tony Hayward.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

To summarize this past week, a bunch of guys trying to win elections screamed about government inaction, then the same bunch screamed about government interference.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

To summarize this past week, a bunch of guys trying to win elections screamed about government inaction, then the same bunch screamed about government interference.

yeah, that'd be one way to look at it... a way that is certainly devoid of the realities of what's gone on to this point... but there we go.

Sounds like you're ready to call 50 days of sitting on your hands a rousing success? 50 days when he stalls on the governor of Louisiana... 50 days where they don't really try to contain the spill... that's a long 50 days. Bush was roasted over the coals for less.

At the end of these 50 days Obama called for an economic crippling taxation program as a "solution" to the problem... he then proceeds to actualize a show trial to distract from the problem... WHICH IS STILL ONGOING... when the reality is the solution is 1) better oversight... 2) actually taking action to actually do clean up within say the first 49 days of an event (I know, its unfair)... 3) determine what did happen, what didn't happen, and what shouldn't happen... 4) then assess the economic cost and put most of that on BP's shoulders.

I know that's unfair to our really really smart president but sometimes reality also affects really really smart presidents.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Speaking of unfair, how about supporting your local gas station owners? They're getting killed right now and have NOTHING to do with the spill, the cleanup, or the politics of the whole thing. Just local people trying to make a living.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Speaking of unfair, how about supporting your local gas station owners? They're getting killed right now and have NOTHING to do with the spill, the cleanup, or the politics of the whole thing. Just local people trying to make a living.

.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010

Speaking of unfair, how about supporting your local gas station owners? They're getting killed right now and have NOTHING to do with the spill, the cleanup, or the politics of the whole thing. Just local people trying to make a living.

Same stupid reaction as the knuckleheads who are boycotting Arizona over immigration issues. But, as with so many issues, people just want to feel good about themselves, even if their actions are very misguided.
 
Re: Gulf Oil Spill 2010


Why? Manson killed some people and got life in prison. The CEO of BP is responsible for just as many deaths, and billions of dollars in environmental damage, and he got an apology.
 
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