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Global War on Terror 9: Winter Is Here.

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How it's going

EsrWnwIXYAUitFU
 
Kepler said:
This really doesn't capture it. Once you get beyond a few individuals things like "intestinal fortitude" that we all like to tell ourselves about are meaningless. Certainly, different groups attract different types of people. There is for example an enormous gulf right now in intelligence and ethics between Democrats and Republicans. But it's not that the Dems are "weaklings." It's that there are a gazillion crosscurrents and perverse incentives within the party caused by being in different positions (the most obvious being the demography of constituents).

True leadership is the capacity to magnetize enough of those diverse, contradictory iron filings in the same direction that you can actually get things moving for a while. FDR had that, though he also had 60-70% majorities so he didn't have to worry about edge cases.

Right now the motivation is our collective recognition that we are fighting LIVE, ACTUAL NAZIS who will literally, not figuratively, destroy the world if they regain power. And yeah, you'd think that would be enough, but again I would cite Hovey. He's not insane or criminal. He seems like a completely average human being. But he can kid himself that we're all crazy to be making such a fuss over what he thinks is normal politics. Well, if he can do that, then so can lots of our guys. Even though they are pulling for our side lots of our people just cannot face reality. And we have a system that allows people to become comfortably ensconced in their safe places and not face reality until it is too late. Just like the Germans in the 30s.
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You know who were almost as dangerous as the Nazis and the Good Little Germans? The ones who said everything will be fine because good wins. You keep pretending the Democrats believe what we believe. They don't. Listen to them they aren't acting like they are fighting evil, they act like they can convince their colleagues that the path they are on is misguided. That is why they are losing. You can dress it up how ever you want, that is weakness. They capitulated before the fight even started and when they lose Impeachment and Trump is vindicated again it will only get worse. Sure CNN and MSNBC will be outraged and the Dem voters will throw a fit and some Pols will give long speeches...but that means nothing.

The GOP is not going back, they are drunk on the power the crazies gave them. Democratic voters can whine all day on Twitter about how we need to hold them accountable but as long as half the people and half of Congress don't agree it is moot. Trump is gonna walk. Cruz and Hawley MIGHT get censured. (but likely not and Mitch no longer controls them anyways) MTG and Crazy Eyes are going nowhere and Jim Jordan is the True North of the Party now. (which is why McCarthy flipped so quickly) The Dems have one chance to stop this and half of them are just fine letting it all play out.

Recognition is worthless...that is like making sure you see the face of the person who murdered you. The motivation needs to be to stop them whatever it takes. If we think they are Nazis then we need to stop them before they cannot be stopped. I am not going to sit around for 15 years waiting for them to finally lose...I have seen this movie before and sequels are usually worse.
 
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Kepler said:
This really doesn't capture it. Once you get beyond a few individuals things like "intestinal fortitude" that we all like to tell ourselves about are meaningless. Certainly, different groups attract different types of people. There is for example an enormous gulf right now in intelligence and ethics between Democrats and Republicans. But it's not that the Dems are "weaklings." It's that there are a gazillion crosscurrents and perverse incentives within the party caused by being in different positions (the most obvious being the demography of constituents).

True leadership is the capacity to magnetize enough of those diverse, contradictory iron filings in the same direction that you can actually get things moving for a while. FDR had that, though he also had 60-70% majorities so he didn't have to worry about edge cases.

Right now the motivation is our collective recognition that we are fighting LIVE, ACTUAL NAZIS who will literally, not figuratively, destroy the world if they regain power. And yeah, you'd think that would be enough, but again I would cite Hovey. He's not insane or criminal. He seems like a completely average human being. But he can kid himself that we're all crazy to be making such a fuss over what he thinks is normal politics. Well, if he can do that, then so can lots of our guys. Even though they are pulling for our side lots of our people just cannot face reality. And we have a system that allows people to become comfortably ensconced in their safe places and not face reality until it is too late. Just like the Germans in the 30s.
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I can live with that.


In my opinion, the way out of this is to lower the temperature. I don't think the problem is with the elected Democrats in Congress. They know, and knew, that impeaching Trump wasn't going to be successful (to the extent that a conviction defines successful). In fact I'd bet that some of them know that impeaching him, and losing in the Senate, actually turns up the temperature even more, on both sides, and isn't ideal.

The way forward, imho, is govern by passing those bills you promised you'd pass. Prosecute the idiots who broke into the Capitol, prosecute anyone else who violates the law, and work at it that way. Let the State of NY prosecute Trump. Convict him of a felony and we don't have to worry about him running for office anyway. Why try him before a political tribunal?
 
SJHovey said:
I can live with that.


In my opinion, the way out of this is to lower the temperature. I don't think the problem is with the elected Democrats in Congress. They know, and knew, that impeaching Trump wasn't going to be successful (to the extent that a conviction defines successful). In fact I'd bet that some of them know that impeaching him, and losing in the Senate, actually turns up the temperature even more, on both sides, and isn't ideal.

The way forward, imho, is govern by passing those bills you promised you'd pass. Prosecute the idiots who broke into the Capitol, prosecute anyone else who violates the law, and work at it that way. Let the State of NY prosecute Trump. Convict him of a felony and we don't have to worry about him running for office anyway. Why try him before a political tribunal?
Click to expand...

All that does is make it ok for any future president to call for a violent insurrection. Why is that ok?

Sure, there's no chance of conviction, but the process will outline any who either support the insurrection or are ok with a president doing that- both of which should be used against them in future elections. Or depending on the support level, being thrown out of congress and/or being prosectuted.

I don't see how ignoring that is a positive path forward. Didn't work for Chamberlain.

Bringing this country together should illustrate that any violence to change how people to politics is not to be tolerated in any form- especially how we have a "war on terror" around the world. How can this not be considered terrorism is beyond me- violence was either threatened or enacted to get their political way when it was not the majority vote. That's the essence of terrorism- use violence to get your way.

People did die in the terrorism.
 
MichVandal said:
All that does is make it ok for any future president to call for a violent insurrection. Why is that ok?

Sure, there's no chance of conviction, but the process will outline any who either support the insurrection or are ok with a president doing that- both of which should be used against them in future elections. Or depending on the support level, being thrown out of congress and/or being prosectuted.

I don't see how ignoring that is a positive path forward. Didn't work for Chamberlain.

Bringing this country together should illustrate that any violence to change how people to politics is not to be tolerated in any form- especially how we have a "war on terror" around the world. How can this not be considered terrorism is beyond me- violence was either threatened or enacted to get their political way when it was not the majority vote. That's the essence of terrorism- use violence to get your way.

People did die in the terrorism.
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Yeah, Al Capone had a lot of people killed too. He went to prison for his taxes.

Let the states take care of Trump. Prosecute hard the people most active in the Capitol invasion. Felony convictions and federal prison for the people who are seen breaking doors and windows, running around with zip ties and molotov cocktails, or stealing from the Speaker of the House.

You guys are all wound up about Cruz and Hawley and these other clowns.

THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY. Do you know what is more useless than a member of a political caucus that is in the minority?










NOTHING.


Let them sit there and whine. Ignore them.
 
None of the Dumpies really want unity and they shouldn't get it. Ignore them like the screaming toddlers they are and push your agenda through. Elections have consequences and all that.
 
SJHovey said:
Yeah, Al Capone had a lot of people killed too. He went to prison for his taxes.

Let the states take care of Trump. Prosecute hard the people most active in the Capitol invasion. Felony convictions and federal prison for the people who are seen breaking doors and windows, running around with zip ties and molotov cocktails, or stealing from the Speaker of the House.

You guys are all wound up about Cruz and Hawley and these other clowns.

THEY ARE IN THE MINORITY. Do you know what is more useless than a member of a political caucus that is in the minority?







w


NOTHING.


Let them sit there and whine. Ignore them.
Click to expand...

You can't be serious. This wasn't some state crime that was violated, nor even some basic federal tax evasion, this was a directed attack on Congress.

Ignoring it allows for a future president who had not already broken hundreds of laws to think he could get away with it, as it was not prosecuted before. How is that not obvious.

The only reason Capone was not held responsible is that nobody could prove that he directed people to do real crimes, otherwise he would have been prosecuted for murder. This is not that case- there's plenty of evidence supporting the directed insurrection.

For a guy who largely supports the "law and order" party- it's amazing that you have the gall to ignore some rather important laws that govern this country- one key one is that voters instead of terrorism run the country.

Stop pretending that this was not a big deal, every day, more data comes out that makes this a bigger deal- when the goals are laid out. Just because the odds of it being pulled off are small, the fact still stands that a crime did happen, as directed by a few named people by the insurrectionists. And we are finding out that members of Congress were also involved.

Unless you really think that we should not have reacted to 9/11 or other terrorist attacks on this country.... Should we have let the OK bomber go, since it was divicine to part of the country? At least OBL should have been not attacked, since he didn't actually pull the trigger, right?
 
MichVandal said:
You can't be serious. This wasn't some state crime that was violated, nor even some basic federal tax evasion, this was a directed attack on Congress.

Ignoring it allows for a future president who had not already broken hundreds of laws to think he could get away with it, as it was not prosecuted before. How is that not obvious.

The only reason Capone was not held responsible is that nobody could prove that he directed people to do real crimes, otherwise he would have been prosecuted for murder. This is not that case- there's plenty of evidence supporting the directed insurrection.

For a guy who largely supports the "law and order" party- it's amazing that you have the gall to ignore some rather important laws that govern this country- one key one is that voters instead of terrorism run the country.

Stop pretending that this was not a big deal, every day, more data comes out that makes this a bigger deal- when the goals are laid out. Just because the odds of it being pulled off are small, the fact still stands that a crime did happen, as directed by a few named people by the insurrectionists. And we are finding out that members of Congress were also involved.

Unless you really think that we should not have reacted to 9/11 or other terrorist attacks on this country.... Should we have let the OK bomber go, since it was divicine to part of the country? At least OBL should have been not attacked, since he didn't actually pull the trigger, right?
Click to expand...

Once he's in jail, no one asks why he's there, other than his fellow inmates. Who cares how or why he is taken down?

I guess all I'm saying about the impeachment is this. I don't oppose him being impeached. If I were in the House, I'd have voted in favor of it. If I were in the Senate, I'd vote to convict.

But I wouldn't be banging a drum demanding that we do it, because I recognize it for it's limited value. He doesn't go to jail if convicted. He doesn't even get kicked out of office. He's already been kicked out.

Yeah, he might not be able to run again, but I doubt that'll even occur. Between whatever NY does to him and his age, I don't see it.
 
SJHovey said:
Once he's in jail, no one asks why he's there, other than his fellow inmates. Who cares how or why he is taken down?

I guess all I'm saying about the impeachment is this. I don't oppose him being impeached. If I were in the House, I'd have voted in favor of it. If I were in the Senate, I'd vote to convict.

But I wouldn't be banging a drum demanding that we do it, because I recognize it for it's limited value. He doesn't go to jail if convicted. He doesn't even get kicked out of office. He's already been kicked out.

Yeah, he might not be able to run again, but I doubt that'll even occur. Between whatever NY does to him and his age, I don't see it.
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The limited value is that we don't condone this kind of action. Which is hardly limited. And even when he's not convicted, we find out how deep the desperate attitude to latch onto any person just to hold power is out there. If we can get that out of out politics, then we can get back to actual policy discussions where both sides compromise all of their positions so that we get to a point where everyone benefits. Like we had been 50 years ago.

And we can stop demonizing really good ideas that are great for the economy just because it's thought of by the other side.

But to get there, the radicals in office need to be purged.

This impeachment is 100% not about going to jail, it's about being held accountable. Words and actions matter. This isn't about dumpy, it's about the next person who wants to be just like him, but w/o the economic baggage that has gotten dumpy in trouble prior to him being president. This would be about hawley if he got nominated.

Same can be said by anyone who aided from within. Will they face jail time? Probably not- but will they be purged from working in our government? Yes, and that's a good thing.
 
LynahFan said:
I will turn 79 just a couple months before my daughter hits 30 (in 29 years).

Life choices.
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Will your wife? It isnt the father that I take issue with. A woman having a kid at 50, while possible, seems highly unlikely.

Either way it is a funny story :^)
 
SJHovey said:
Once he's in jail, no one asks why he's there, other than his fellow inmates. Who cares how or why he is taken down?

I guess all I'm saying about the impeachment is this. I don't oppose him being impeached. If I were in the House, I'd have voted in favor of it. If I were in the Senate, I'd vote to convict.

But I wouldn't be banging a drum demanding that we do it, because I recognize it for it's limited value. He doesn't go to jail if convicted. He doesn't even get kicked out of office. He's already been kicked out.

Yeah, he might not be able to run again, but I doubt that'll even occur. Between whatever NY does to him and his age, I don't see it.
Click to expand...

No but he would then likely be barred from holding office again which is a key. (the threshold for that is lower) That may seem inconsequential since you assume he is off to jail but if he isnt then it is worth all of the effort just on its face.

Plus it acts as a deterrent. If we can't hold him responsible because it happened so late in his term then what would stop any President from doing the same thing? If you already lost (or were termed out) you could commit every illegal act in the book and there would be no consequence. There has to be something...

Personally, I would call the GOPs bluff. If they are calling him a private citizen then he is subject to the laws of the government. Charge him with Sedition and Incitement and put him on trial in front of a judge and jury. They can't have it both ways he is either subject to the laws of Legislative or the Judiciary. He can't avoid both just because they fear they are next. (and he will squeal he has been an informant his whole career)
 
Handyman said:
You know who were almost as dangerous as the Nazis and the Good Little Germans? The ones who said everything will be fine because good wins
Click to expand...

You got it in your head at some point that that's what I am saying and no matter how many times I tell you it's not you keep repeating it. I can't fix that. Believe what you want.
 
SJHovey said:
I can live with that.


In my opinion, the way out of this is to lower the temperature. I don't think the problem is with the elected Democrats in Congress. They know, and knew, that impeaching Trump wasn't going to be successful (to the extent that a conviction defines successful). In fact I'd bet that some of them know that impeaching him, and losing in the Senate, actually turns up the temperature even more, on both sides, and isn't ideal.

The way forward, imho, is govern by passing those bills you promised you'd pass. Prosecute the idiots who broke into the Capitol, prosecute anyone else who violates the law, and work at it that way. Let the State of NY prosecute Trump. Convict him of a felony and we don't have to worry about him running for office anyway. Why try him before a political tribunal?
Click to expand...

I would lower the temperature by governing as far Left as possible while spraying around lame centrist unity platitudes. Liberal policies will help the economy and lower inequality and improve everybody's life, just like always, and decreasing volatility and hardship will dry up the swamps where the right wing insurgents hide and the right wing demagogues thrive.

But I won't appease terrorists or Nazis. It's not turning down the temperature to refrain from throwing the insurrectionists and the Dump team in a hole and throwing away the hole.
 
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