Gender Studies I

[Swansong]

I kind of agree with RaceBoarder here. There are issues that need be addressed however, they require thoughtful, respectful, nuanced discussion and it’s being ruined by a—holes trying to score political points.

I agree, and my default position in this case would be to simply be the libertarian I say I am and allow trans folks to compete in the "division" with which they identify.

The main argument against this is put forth mostly by disingenuous people, so I would suggest we cut them out of the discussion.

 

[LynahFan]

It's just highly amusing for me that all these Conservatives (in general, not on this board) are coming out of the woodwork to complain about fairness for women. Tomorrow they'll be back to campaigning against abortion rights, birth control, family leave, protections for victims of sexual harassment, extended statutes of limitations for sexual assaults, affirmative action, equal pay, equal rights, and pretty much anything else they can think of to disadvantage women.

We're supposed to believe this is about fairness for women? Hell, no. They're tripping over themselves in their rush to discriminate against trans people. Period. Fairness for women is a convenient rhetorical device, nothing more.

 

[unofan]

I had (have? I don't even know anymore) similar thoughts/concerns to Raceboarder, but then another thought hit me.

When you find yourself sharing opinions with people you find detestable (nazis, racists, homophobes... pick anyone), don't you re-evaluate your calculus?


I want fairness for everyone. For biological women to protect them from unscrupulous males masquerading as trans women. I want fairness for trans women to be able to compete with cis women. Right? That's our goal?

And then I see many of the other people espousing these views and they clearly don't give a **** about fairness; they care about cruelty and exlusion. And suddenly I find myself completely rethinking things.





I'm probably terribly explaining myself, and I apologize.

Yes, it gives me pause. But then I listen to my wife and think about my daughter and try to put myself in their shoes.

My wife could kick my ass in a race right now because I'm both lazy and hate running while she likes it and isn't lazy. But if I got off my ass and trained for 6 months (and probably not even as hard as she does), the tables would be reversed.

So yeah, I can understand why she would be frustrated if she lost a podium position at a local half marathon to a trans woman who may or may not be on hormone suppressors.

I'm not saying there's an easy answer. I'm just with raceboarder in saying there is room for some nuance between the assholes complaining about bathrooms and the left's nobler but misguided "genetics never matter" stance.

 

[RaceBoarder]

It's just highly amusing for me that all these Conservatives (in general, not on this board) are coming out of the woodwork to complain about fairness for women. Tomorrow they'll be back to campaigning against abortion rights, birth control, family leave, protections for victims of sexual harassment, extended statutes of limitations for sexual assaults, affirmative action, equal pay, equal rights, and pretty much anything else they can think of to disadvantage women.

We're supposed to believe this is about fairness for women? Hell, no. They're tripping over themselves in their rush to discriminate against trans people. Period. Fairness for women is a convenient rhetorical device, nothing more.

That's exactly it... Like many things, many of the people saying stuff like this openly contradict themselves 5 minutes later... And that IS NOT cool and makes those people human trash...

But also glossing over the fact that, maybe, this is a legitimate concern to people in the athletics world, is also a similar stance to the GOP's "Suck it up Buttercup!" stance that many on the Left openly deride.

No one can look at things independently and form decisions on their own... It's all about your party's "big picture"... And here on USCHO people from the Left do the exact same thing...

 

[unofan]

I thought his statement was terrific, and doing the math really drove the point home. I'd bet a lot of money that the "real" numbers are higher than he said, but that doesn't change the fact that "your daughter isn't getting screwed, for the love of god stop being so exclusionary".

There's a bit of a chicken and egg issue there, though. As it becomes more and more socially acceptable to be out (which is absolutely a good thing), there will be more trans athletes at all levels, including high school. Is it worth having a law at this point? Almost certainly not. Does that invalidate the entire issue? Also no.

Because at some point there will be a Kaitlyn Jenner level talent who comes out before or during the prime of her career. By having the discussion now, at the least we can be somewhat prepared for what regulations should cover that situation. And it will almost certainly change over time.

 

[Jimjamesak]

That's exactly it... Like many things, many of the people saying stuff like this openly contradict themselves 5 minutes later... And that IS NOT cool and makes those people human trash...

But also glossing over the fact that, maybe, this is a legitimate concern to people in the athletics world, is also a similar stance to the GOP's "Suck it up Buttercup!" stance that many on the Left openly deride.

No one can look at things independently and form decisions on their own... It's all about your party's "big picture"... And here on USCHO people from the Left do the exact same thing...

Yeah, in all honesty it’s people from outside the sports world that have zero clue trying to put their noses in a place that they really don’t need to be.

I honestly don’t blame MissT for being upset and being passionate about this, I just want her to understand that we’re not against her and really want her concerns and input in these discussions.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

I played on boys sports teams growing up for years due to lack of girls teams. As a female on the smaller side, it quite frankly got dangerous esp in hockey as the boys just got so much bigger and stronger so much faster.

i agree there are some nuances here that aren’t clear for everyone, but I’m 100% with the Utah governor. The kids need to play sports . There are always going to be people who have advantages- I’m sure Michael Phelps crushed tons of talented swimmers based on his biological advantages.

 

[Kepler]

This thread is a real education. People are willing to hold "nuanced" opinions on to what extent other people have the right to be recognized.

Beware the middle.

 

[unofan]

This thread is a real education. People are willing to hold "nuanced" opinions on to what extent other people have the right to be recognized.

Beware the middle.

No one posting on here in the last 24 hours had said anything about not recognizing anyone else.

So go fuck yourself, Kepler.

My straight white cis Ivy League elite male opinion is as valid as your straight white cis Ivy League elite male opinion. I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether to give them a ton of weight or none at all.

 

[MissThundercat]

I'm diametrically opposed to the following behaviors I've seen from cis people.

When cis people constantly engage in either hero worship (excessive admiration), pity, and treating me like a child who doesn't know what they're doing or what they're talking about, I'm going to be resentful.

When cis people continually make trans issues about them, I'm going to be resentful.

When cishets are outraged over Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas, or Fallon Fox entering the competition and remain silent after they fail, it makes me resentful.

When there's a pervasive and persistent attitude of "shut up, you're making me uncomfortable," I'm going to be resentful.

When cis people remain silent while other cis people threaten and intimidate my community, I'm going to be resentful.

So on.

 

[Swansong]

I think there's a difference between determining standards - where they are most equitable and fair to all parties - and blanket determining whether certain people have agency at all.

Of course trans athletes have agency. I think conflating the disingenuous questions/complaints of the right wing with the nuance of discussing physiological differences is counter-productive.


Again, I've kind of landed my opinion on "just let people compete". But standards are important.

 

[RaceBoarder]

I'm diametrically opposed to the following behaviors I've seen from cis people.

When cis people constantly engage in either hero worship (excessive admiration), pity, and treating me like a child who doesn't know what they're doing or what they're talking about, I'm going to be resentful.

When cis people continually make trans issues about them, I'm going to be resentful.

When cishets are outraged over Laurel Hubbard, Lia Thomas, or Fallon Fox entering the competition and remain silent after they fail, it makes me resentful.

When there's a pervasive and persistent attitude of "shut up, you're making me uncomfortable," I'm going to be resentful.

When cis people remain silent while other cis people threaten and intimidate my community, I'm going to be resentful.

So on.

The fact that you seem to equate all CIS people into the same classification here is exactly what Im talking about Miss T... We get it... You hate CIS people and feel that Trans people are "Homo Superior" so to speak. Also none of the things you mentioned are really present here except for a VERY SMALL minority whom you should know to basically ignore... But hey, keep stereotyping all CIS people in a manner that would make Fox News proud... You really do make it seem like that 30-40% of the country is a 90% majority...

 

[Swansong]

The fact that you seem to equate all CIS people into the same classification here is exactly what Im talking about Miss T... We get it... You hate CIS people and feel that Trans people are "Homo Superior" so to speak. Also none of the things you mentioned are really present here except for a VERY SMALL minority whom you should know to basically ignore... But hey, keep stereotyping all CIS people in a manner that would make Fox News proud... You really do make it seem like that 30-40% of the country is a 90% majority...

I'm gonna go to bat for Miss T here, at least a little. I don't think she hates "us" at all, and I don't think she's really reacting particularly strongly. I don't happen to share her stronger beliefs but I'm not the one that's being openly targeted by a frighteningly large amount of people. Similarly, I'm not the one whose very agency is being "reasonable'd" away but otherwise well-meaning people.

 

[Kepler]

No one posting on here in the last 24 hours had said anything about not recognizing anyone else.

So go fuck yourself, Kepler.

My straight white cis Ivy League elite male opinion is as valid as your straight white cis Ivy League elite male opinion. I'll leave it to the readers to decide whether to give them a ton of weight or none at all.

I've never seen you lose your sh-t before.

You might want to think about why you did.

In all seriousness, your reaction is so strong I see pure defensiveness, not thought.

I'm not saying anybody here is a monster. I'm saying it is possible for good people to hold horrible opinions because of their latent privilege and entitlement and cultural background, and the way out of that is to think about the lived experience of others and who faces the worst and most damaging consequences.

I've not attacked anyone. I've said your opinion is callous and harmful to vulnerable people without you realizing it.

I have *no doubt* I hold unconscious biases and similarly tone deaf opinions I am unaware of. This is not the Woke Olympics. So when somebody like Jim or Handy attacks me like that I think "they can't make that distinction" and just razz them. But you can, I've seen it many times.

So I would ask you to mull it over. I'm saying things I would have disagree with 10, 5, maybe 2 years ago. But now that I believe what I believe, I'll defend MissT because frankly the rest of us can pound sand compared with her experience.

She can defend herself, she has no need of me.

 

[Jeb2020]

“Cis People”

LMFAO

 

[Jimjamesak]

I've not attacked anyone. I've said your opinion is callous and harmful to vulnerable people without you realizing it.

Here’s a fact you’re sanctimoniously glossing over: Your opinion is also callous and harmful to vulnerable people without you realizing it.

The one thing that is either being dismissed (by people like you) or being abused (by righty idiots) is the opinion and concerns of female athletes.

 

[Jeb2020]

No, you are still missing the only point that matters: they are female, therefore they can compete as female.

False. A Female is a Female. A male is a male.

A transgender female is a transgender female.

A female and a transgender female are not the same in that regard.

Carry on about who can compete in which sporting events.

 

[MissThundercat]

I've been on HRT for over 4 years.

This is what I've seen.

This is what I've experienced.

If I call out certain behavior, it doesn't mean I hate you, it means I think you can do better. I would expect anyone else to do the same for me.

I'm asking to be left alone for the most part. I don't want visibility and awareness. I'm not a hero for going to work and standing in line at Meijer. I'm not a charity case for hanging with Ben and Jerry more often than I should. If this makes me a trans supremacist, so be it.

 

[Jimjamesak]

For the record, I have no problem with Lia Thomas competing and winning. She is female, she met all the standards, she won, get over it.

Now, should there be further evaluation and research into what those standards are? Yes I do. Ultimately, the goal should be a standard that is fair as possible and as inclusive as possible for all parties, trans, cis, intersex, whatever, involved.

Both the righty solution (basing only on sex assigned at birth) and the lefty solution (basing only on whatever gender the person identifies as) are fraught with issues of fairness and, most importantly, inclusiveness.

 

[Kepler]

Here’s a fact you’re sanctimoniously glossing over: Your opinion is also callous and harmful to vulnerable people without you realizing it.

The one thing that is either being dismissed (by people like you) or being abused (by righty idiots) is the opinion and concerns of female athletes.

The trans women are female athletes. Don't you get that?