Gender Studies I

[MissThundercat]

Amy Schneider kicks ass on Jeopardy:

"She's cheating and it's not fair to the other girls."

Lia Thomas barely wins one NCAA Championship and loses badly in the other two:

"She's cheating and it's not fair to the other girls."

15 year old trans woman wants to compete in high school:

"She's cheating and it's not fair to the other girls."

A trans woman could win a local pumpkin rolling contest:

"She's cheating and it's not fair to the other girls."

In the end, it was never about fairness. I'm starting to learn it's all about protecting cis privilege at any cost. And given that bigots lost on bathrooms and the military, they'll lose on sports too.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Specifically regarding the high school athlete in question:

Why are Male high school Track and Field/Swimming/etc. times & distances 10-20% better than their female counterparts? If it's not genetics/biology, what is it?

Also remember that these are likely people that are recently transitioned and likely pre-hormone therapy, so yes, it's male muscle & bone structure in play...

It's not as simple as you think it is MissT. Despite most of the people pushing this stuff being complete fuckwads, there are some valid points being made, despite those making them being completely out of line. At that level, "fairness" is absolutely in play and the answers are not as simple as you think that they are.

 

[Jeb2020]

 

[Kepler]

Specifically regarding the high school athlete in question:

Why are Male high school Track and Field/Swimming/etc. times & distances 10-20% better than their female counterparts? If it's not genetics/biology, what is it?

Also remember that these are likely people that are recently transitioned and likely pre-hormone therapy, so yes, it's male muscle & bone structure in play...

It's not as simple as you think it is MissT. Despite most of the people pushing this stuff being complete fuckwads, there are some valid points being made, despite those making them being completely out of line. At that level, "fairness" is absolutely in play and the answers are not as simple as you think that they are.

No, you are still missing the only point that matters: they are female, therefore they can compete as female.

It doesn't matter if they are bigger and stronger any more than it would matter that a cis female was bigger and stronger. It would not even matter if they had never transitioned.

Your gender is what you say it is. Full stop. All the other qualms, take up with the notion of whether sports should be segregated by gender. If people think that is so important they should strip Caitlyn Jenner's medals from her since she competed in the "wrong" gender's category.

 

[MissThundercat]

When 3 wolves and a sheep are deciding what to eat for dinner, the end result isn't going to be pizza. Fairness solely determined by cis people is only fair to cis people.

 

[LynahFan]

No, you are still missing the only point that matters: they are female, therefore they can compete as female.

It doesn't matter if they are bigger and stronger any more than it would matter that a cis female was bigger and stronger. It would not even matter if they had never transitioned.

Your gender is what you say it is. Full stop. All the other qualms, take up with the notion of whether sports should be segregated by gender. If people think that is so important they should strip Caitlyn Jenner's medals from her since she competed in the "wrong" gender's category.

Amen. Was it “fair” to all the other swimmers whose careers peaked in 2018 that genetic freak Katy Ledecky happened to be peaking at the same time? Sprinters who ran entire careers in the shadow of Usain Bolt? Fair is crap. Discrimination is real, and evil - be gone.

in the NCAA 500 freestyle, every swimmer but one also lost to Emma Weyant, so they have no cause to complain about fair in the first place - only Emma would. Are that one person’s feelings so important that we would exclude an entire class of people from even getting in the pool? No, ma’am. Nobody is entitled to anything when it comes to sports - they have always been for the genetic freaks (who work hard to take advantage of their advantages!). Sorry if you just weren’t freaky enough, but the sport owes you nothing.

 

[unofan]

If people think that is so important they should strip Caitlyn Jenner's medals from her since she competed in the "wrong" gender's category.

Oh stop. No one complains about a trans person competing in men's sports because the men's division is the open division. If someone with 2 X chromosomes can compete and win despite the inherent biological disadvantage, more power to them.

But I guarantee if Kaitlyn Jenner had tried to compete in the woman's heptathlon 50 years ago instead of the men's decathlon, we're not even having this discussion because draconian rules would've been implemented the second she embarrassed the rest of the field.

 

[MissThundercat]

And yet, for all her "biological advantages," Lia finished 5th in one event and 8th in another. Hormones and testosterone blockers with rigorous testing make all the "biological advantages" moot. And I figure most cis males should know some of the side effects of decreased/low T are decreased muscle mass and strength and increased fatigue. Lia is STILL 10 seconds short of Katie Ledecky and won the one event by 1.75 seconds. Not exactly wiping the floor with the competition.

The silence for when Lia finished 5th in one event and 8th in her final event is deafening.

 

[unofan]

Hormones and testosterone blockers with rigorous testing make all the "biological advantages" moot.

For those that have done it already. Which is why most governing bodies require proof of that type of transition before allowing trans athletes to compete in the women's division. Something that often gets bashed on this board and elsewhere as an invasive requirement.

 

[RaceBoarder]

And yet, for all her "biological advantages," Lia finished 5th in one event and 8th in another. Hormones and testosterone blockers with rigorous testing make all the "biological advantages" moot. And I figure most cis males should know some of the side effects of decreased/low T are decreased muscle mass and strength and increased fatigue. Lia is STILL 10 seconds short of Katie Ledecky and won the one event by 1.75 seconds. Not exactly wiping the floor with the competition.

The silence for when Lia finished 5th in one event and 8th in her final event is deafening.

And she was never near the finals in a Men's event. Never threatening for a podium finish.

And stop playing it like the hormone therapy is like a tranquilizer. Does it help mitigate it SOME of the hormonal advantages? Yes. Does it fully cancel out the entire 15-20% performance advantage? No.


And for the record, Thomas' time only dropped 6% after her transition... So yea, not exactly erasing the average 10-20% difference.

Edit: The point I'm trying to make here is that it's not as cut and dry as some of you are trying to make it out to be... And you are being the left's equivalent of a Dumpy with an "All or Nothing" attitude towards this. This isn't a one in a million thing like a pedo in a bathroom. This will absolutely have a drastic effect immediately on non-elite/amatuer athletics (High School)...

 

[MissThundercat]

Lia Thomas and Laurel Hubbard were allowed to compete according to NCAA/IOC standards, including having a mandatory T level of <10 pg/ml for over a year. Sorry they didn't match your standards. Take it up with the sport's governing body if you're so concerned.

As for banning trans athletes from amateur athletes, the Utah Governor says it better than I could:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GBBranstetter/status/1506384842954579975

 

[Swansong]

I had (have? I don't even know anymore) similar thoughts/concerns to Raceboarder, but then another thought hit me.

When you find yourself sharing opinions with people you find detestable (nazis, racists, homophobes... pick anyone), don't you re-evaluate your calculus?


I want fairness for everyone. For biological women to protect them from unscrupulous males masquerading as trans women. I want fairness for trans women to be able to compete with cis women. Right? That's our goal?

And then I see many of the other people espousing these views and they clearly don't give a shit about fairness; they care about cruelty and exlusion. And suddenly I find myself completely rethinking things.





I'm probably terribly explaining myself, and I apologize.

 

[RaceBoarder]

I had (have? I don't even know anymore) similar thoughts/concerns to Raceboarder, but then another thought hit me.

When you find yourself sharing opinions with people you find detestable (nazis, racists, homophobes... pick anyone), don't you re-evaluate your calculus?


I want fairness for everyone. For biological women to protect them from unscrupulous males masquerading as trans women. I want fairness for trans women to be able to compete with cis women. Right? That's our goal?

And then I see many of the other people espousing these views and they clearly don't give a **** about fairness; they care about cruelty and exlusion. And suddenly I find myself completely rethinking things.





I'm probably terribly explaining myself, and I apologize.

No, I understand your point.

And to be clear, I feel dirty as all hell having to side with the likes of the Dumpies of the world... Just as someone who has embraced sport for most of their life, I feel that this is quite literally the 1 out of 100 times that we need to take a step back and look at the situation deeper...

Miss T, Kep, and everyone else keeps ignoring that I have stated several times THAT I SUPPORT trans-athletes in "elite" competition where hormonal testing is accepted and currently administered. But MissT throws quips in there about high school/amatuer athletics in there like they are the same thing, while she constantly throws anti-CIS commentary on top of it. That is why it's frustrating to debate amongst the crowd here. "Elite" and High School are two VERY different worlds. And as someone who officiates sports for a very serious side hobby, yes, I put an emphasis on fairness for EVERYONE... This is also coming from someone who has touched the very lower rungs of the "Elite" level of competition personally. So I can understand the valid and realistic points made by walking trash bins...

This is the SAM WILSON meme in a nutshell... The "He's out of line, but he's right" one...

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

As the UT governor mentioned in his statement, out of the ~75,000 grade school athletes in Utah, there are currently 4 who identify as transgender and exactly 1 who is playing girls' sports. Granted, you can argue it's Utah so probably not very many kids are brave enough to come out as LGBTQ+ in the first place. But it's hardly worth fretting over, let alone crafting an entire piece of legislation to discriminate against a miniscule percentage of the population, unless of course you are a bigoted Republican legislator looking to score cheap points with your slack-jawed, Space Jesus-believing, "I get to rule my own planet when I die" base.

 

[Swansong]

As the UT governor mentioned in his statement, out of the ~75,000 grade school athletes in Utah, there are currently 4 who identify as transgender and exactly 1 who is playing girls' sports. Granted, you can argue it's Utah so probably not very many kids are brave enough to come out as LGBTQ+ in the first place. But it's hardly worth fretting over, let alone crafting an entire piece of legislation to discriminate against a miniscule percentage of the population, unless of course you are a bigoted Republican legislator looking to score cheap points with your slack-jawed, Space Jesus-believing, "I get to rule my own planet when I die" base.

I thought his statement was terrific, and doing the math really drove the point home. I'd bet a lot of money that the "real" numbers are higher than he said, but that doesn't change the fact that "your daughter isn't getting screwed, for the love of god stop being so exclusionary".

 

[Jimjamesak]

Oh stop. No one complains about a trans person competing in men's sports because the men's division is the open division. If someone with 2 X chromosomes can compete and win despite the inherent biological disadvantage, more power to them.

But I guarantee if Kaitlyn Jenner had tried to compete in the woman's heptathlon 50 years ago instead of the men's decathlon, we're not even having this discussion because draconian rules would've been implemented the second she embarrassed the rest of the field.

Actually, to put perspective on this discussion, Jenner would not have been allowed to compete in the heptathlon because sex testing at the Olympics was still a thing in 1976.

 

[RaceBoarder]

As the UT governor mentioned in his statement, out of the ~75,000 grade school athletes in Utah, there are currently 4 who identify as transgender and exactly 1 who is playing girls' sports. Granted, you can argue it's Utah so probably not very many kids are brave enough to come out as LGBTQ+ in the first place. But it's hardly worth fretting over, let alone crafting an entire piece of legislation to discriminate against a miniscule percentage of the population, unless of course you are a bigoted Republican legislator looking to score cheap points with your slack-jawed, Space Jesus-believing, "I get to rule my own planet when I die" base.

The issue is that despite being such minuscule numbers, we've already seen a trans athlete win a Wresting state title in Texas (albeit a trans male forced to compete against females) and transgender athletes in Connecticut in Track and Field.

Unfortunately these are gonna be high profile cases since they are competing for state titles... No one care's about the HS junior running a 3:15 in the 800M their local dual track meet against girls.

Edit: A competitive time in the woman's 800m is probably a 2:20-2:40 at the HS Girl's level.

 

[wolverineTrumpet]

I am vertically challenged and did not make my high school girls' basketball team. It wasn't fair. Out of 100 girls that tried out, I made it to the last 18 and then was cut. You know what unfair factors played into it other than genetics (and the tall girl that couldn't dribble that made the team)? The principal's daughter made it, the athletic director for the county schools daughter made it, the girl that flirted with the coach made it. A heavier set girl that was the best player in my rec league also got cut before the final 12.
Sports aren't fair.
Fortunately for me, my area had rec league and I still got to play, if not for my high school team.

 

[Swansong]

I am vertically challenged and did not make my high school girls' basketball team. It wasn't fair. Out of 100 girls that tried out, I made it to the last 18 and then was cut. You know what unfair factors played into it other than genetics (and the tall girl that couldn't dribble that made the team)? The principal's daughter made it, the athletic director for the county schools daughter made it, the girl that flirted with the coach made it. A heavier set girl that was the best player in my rec league also got cut before the final 12.
Sports aren't fair.
Fortunately for me, my area had rec league and I still got to play, if not for my high school team.

You are 1000% correct, obviously, and most things in life aren't fair. But I'm not sure citing other things that aren't fair contradict discussing this thing that also isn't fair.


(again, posted respectfully and without any kind of internet "gotcha" bs)

 

[Jimjamesak]

I kind of agree with RaceBoarder here. There are issues that need be addressed however, they require thoughtful, respectful, nuanced discussion and it’s being ruined by a—holes trying to score political points.