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Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I think the key piece of evidence is if they have tape of Law Enforcement (911, etc) telling him to not pursue/follow the kid. He does so anyways and ends up killing him.

That makes the entire incident avoidable, and makes him guilty of homicide.

Let's go through this again: the 911 dispatcher (who has zero law enforcement authority or any authority at all) said: "We don't need you to do that." To which Zimmerman replied: "Okay" (which many of our friends in the MSM edited out of their reportage, too).

The unanswered questions are: did Zimmerman actually abandon his pursuit of Martin and head back to his truck? And, despite that, did Martin jump Zimmerman? Are there witnesses who can help answer those questions? Who knows?
 
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Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I can't follow that logic at all and I doubt that the courts would either. Even if you are told not to go somewhere (a bad neighborhood for example) it still doesn't excuse anyone else from committing a crime and you reacting to that crime.

He may be acquitted. That doesn't make it a just law. Go to any dictatorship and you'll find plenty of bad laws.

It's stand your ground, not chase after someone and shoot them. Which is in essense what happened. Even if the kid assaulted him, it was his own fault for being there after being told not to.

It appears someone else agrees with JF's point who should have a decent perspective on the issue, Jeb Bush:

“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody.”
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I'm not real sure that anyone is saying that.

What did happen though was that the national media looked at this and assumed that it was a racist hate crime before all of the facts were out. Minority religious types did their usual pandering. Senators and other famous types made fools of themselves wearing hoodies in solidarity. T-shirts were printed.

The court of public opinion was tilted severely against Zimmerman because a lot of people want the story to be about racism and hate so they can point at it and say "SEE, these poor teenagers are being unfairly persecuted!"

There are obviously plenty of real examples of profiling and hate, but this simply may not be one of those. Time will tell and many of the same people who were (figuratively) wearing hoodies on this, would be the first to wail about innocent until proven guilty.

I have no idea what happened that night, but I'm willing to wait it out and see how the court handles it - not that a court is gauranteed to get it right.

Common sense, that in this case has been in extremely short supply.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Fair enough. :)

Here's a thought on the whole, "Could be my son" kerfuffle. Why must we as a society always assume the lowest common denominator when analyzing what a politician says? Is it not possible that Obama meant he could relate to how Martin's parents felt when losing a child and not an omg moment? Every time I read a story in the Nice Planet thread about a child being abused my heart aches almost as if the child were my own. Why can't we on occasion give our leaders the benefit of the doubt in manners such as these and let the country collectively continue in civil discourse? Is that comment really going to make or break ANYONES vote? Probably not so let's move past it.

(btw that's not aimed art you specifically op)

Well, sure. But the Old Pio dictum is "everything a president does is political" or at least involves a political calculation. In this case, polling data are showing a decline in enthusiasm among black voters, for whom turnout is the key to electing any Democratic president. Recall that a 60% increase of black voters in Florida in 2000 (as compared to '96) very nearly made Al Gore president.

By making the statement he did, Obama (in my view intentionally) gave his blessing to the relentless and continuing race baiting on this matter. Almost immediately, he posed with Sharpton, again giving the presidential seal of approval to this fourflushing, lying, race pimp. I'm afraid none of this is accidental or unintentional. The fact that it damages the fragile relationships between the races is of no concern whatsoever. He's got an election to win. And nothing is more important than that.

He has a track record here. He jumped with both feet into the middle of the fracas between his pal Skip Gates and the Cambridge police, allowing that they "acted stupidly" without, apparantly, a scintilla of knowledge about what really went on. It's not credible to suggest that Cambridge (with a black mayor and police chief) is like Selma. No dogs. No fire hoses. No Bull Connor cattle prods. And just to put the cherry on the sundae, the officer who cuffed and stuffed Gates was the guy in charge of teaching race relations to other officers. And there was at least one black officer on hand, who didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Just the arrest of a middle aged, mouthy, Harvard professor who thought he was waaaay to important to show an ID when asked.

So this blew up in the president's face and he scrambled to regain the high ground by having the "summit" in the Rose Garden. As I've suggested, wouldn't it have been nice if, in addition to noting Martin's resemblance to himself, had also said vengeance against random white people is inappropriate? He hasn't. And he won't.

Nothing that boy did "justifies" what happened to him. That's why my posts don't mention pot smoking and all the rest: irrelevant. Although the irony is if he hadn't gotten into trouble at his high school he wouldn't have been at his dad's place at all, and would presumably still be with us.

Bottom line: I'm sure Obama was sincere in his feelings. But he's smart enough to know there's political hay to be made here. And he took advantage of the situation for all it's worth. And still is.
 
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Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Fair enough. :)

Here's a thought on the whole, "Could be my son" kerfuffle. Why must we as a society always assume the lowest common denominator when analyzing what a politician says? Is it not possible that Obama meant he could relate to how Martin's parents felt when losing a child and not an omg moment? Every time I read a story in the Nice Planet thread about a child being abused my heart aches almost as if the child were my own. Why can't we on occasion give our leaders the benefit of the doubt in manners such as these and let the country collectively continue in civil discourse? Is that comment really going to make or break ANYONES vote? Probably not so let's move past it.

(btw that's not aimed art you specifically op)
We live in a society where, unfortunately, politicians do everything in a calculated manner. I'm sure there are moments when this isn't a case, but with all the assistants, handlers, PR people, etc., things are very carefully scripted for the most part. A rare gifted politician can ad lib a bit, but they are the exception to the rule. I fully believe what Obama said was a sentiment he felt at least to some extent, but it was also a carefully crafted statement. Part of it is that you can have a very capable politician, and they make a verbal misstep or two, and they can just get clobbered for it. So we end up with a bunch of scripted politicians who talk all the time but rarely make you feel like they're really telling you what they truly think or feel.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

We live in a society where, unfortunately, politicians do everything in a calculated manner. I'm sure there are moments when this isn't a case, but with all the assistants, handlers, PR people, etc., things are very carefully scripted for the most part. A rare gifted politician can ad lib a bit, but they are the exception to the rule. I fully believe what Obama said was a sentiment he felt at least to some extent, but it was also a carefully crafted statement. Part of it is that you can have a very capable politician, and they make a verbal misstep or two, and they can just get clobbered for it. So we end up with a bunch of scripted politicians who talk all the time but rarely make you feel like they're really telling you what they truly think or feel.


I'm pretty sure Biden just says whatever comes to mind. And then at night, he gets stretched a bit in the White House dungeon.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I'm pretty sure Biden just says whatever comes to mind. And then at night, he gets stretched a bit in the White House dungeon.
That's true. There are politicians who don't follow script, but aren't brilliant orators and probably should find a script to follow.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

He may be acquitted regardless of stand your ground. It may in fact be a true case of self-defense.

Although your point may be true...problem is it won't matter. If he takes a stand your ground defense, we will never know if it is true self defense as that won't be what any arguments or evidence is prepared for. And justice on the basis of true self defense will be permanently obscured.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Although your point may be true...problem is it won't matter. If he takes a stand your ground defense, we will never know if it is true self defense as that won't be what any arguments or evidence is prepared for. And justice on the basis of true self defense will be permanently obscured.

Put the glass of Kool aid down and step away from it. "Give the money to Bozo."
 
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Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Different 17 year olds react differently. If it was me when I was 17, and I thought an older man was following me in a threatening manner, the last thing I'd think about would be confronting him, especially if I wasn't that far from home. I'd be high-tailing it home as quick as my legs could go. But, there are 17-year olds that would be more aggressive in responding to someone following them. Probably some blame both ways that a confrontation happened.
Bob, I agree. Huh. That wasn't so hard after all. :D
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Bob and OP - you're probably right there was some calculation with that statement. But even if that's true if the underlying sentiment is that of a parent empathizing with such a loss I can live with it. Any voter worth his/her salt wasn't swayed either way and the rest will swim in another direction the next time the tide changes. As it is one life has been lost and another hangs in the balance and I'd rather discuss whether or these laws are fine as they or perhaps need some tweaking.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I'm curious to know how much thc was in Martin's system. For those who don't know, thc is not water-soluble, which means that when it gets into the blood stream, it doesn't dissolve in the blood, thin out, and go away in a few hours like alcohol does. I don't know what a "trace" amount really means, but it could very easily mean that he got high the previous night. Or the previous week. And more to the point, you can tell whether someone is drunk by how much alcohol is in their blood. Because THC isn't water-soluble, THC in the blood is NOT an indication of being high.
 
Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

Bob and OP - you're probably right there was some calculation with that statement. But even if that's true if the underlying sentiment is that of a parent empathizing with such a loss I can live with it. Any voter worth his/her salt wasn't swayed either way and the rest will swim in another direction the next time the tide changes. As it is one life has been lost and another hangs in the balance and I'd rather discuss whether or these laws are fine as they or perhaps need some tweaking.

I'm not sure what statement you're referring to. If it's His Oneness' flashing the green light to the race pimps, I'm afraid I can't agree.

This is SOP. Let your mind drift back to the 2000 election. The NAACP does an ad suggesting Governor Bush's opposition to a Texas hate crimes law played some role in the ghastly crime that took the life of Mr. Byrd in Jasper.

The usual suspects, including Jesse "spiritual advisor" Jackson and Bianca Jagger showed up in Huntsville to protest the execution of an incredibly violent murderer by the name of Gary Graham. Geraldo was nearly in tears when Texas put that monster's lights out. One of Graham's victims, who did not die, had his leg blown off by a close range shotgun blast.

Jackson also found time to raise the specter of lynching in the case of a young black man found hanged in his front yard in Kokomo, Mississippi. This despite local, state and federal (Janet Reno's Justice Department) investigations which concluded the young man had taken his own life.

The only thing missing from Jackson and Sharpton's CV's these days is the mention of a specific, paid, function they're performing for the Obama campaign.
This is all about "energizing the base," and it's despicable.
 
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Re: Florida vs. Zimmerman - Q.E.D????????

I was referring to the, "could be my son" or whatever. Like I said I am sure there was something behind it, but we'll have to agree to disagree that I can live with it as a parent that laments when someone else loses a child so unexpectedly.

btw, you're preaching to the choir when going after Jackson and Sharpton. :)
 
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