What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

that sounds like alot of schooling, without much real job potential, other than government work, that is.

If it makes you feel any better, and if you had read what I wrote, I already have basically two full time jobs, and will be going to law school and will be joining a law firm when I finish. Also, FWIW, patent lawyers make pretty good money ;).
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

If it makes you feel any better, and if you had read what I wrote, I already have basically two full time jobs, and will be going to law school and will be joining a law firm when I finish. Also, FWIW, patent lawyers make pretty good money ;).

And I own 6 cars (Ferrari, BMW, Benz, Hummer, Camaro and Corvette), 3 houses (Aspen, Denver and NYC), go golfing at Augusta every other weekend by flying there in my Learjet (on the other weekends I volunteer at Denver area AIDS clinics as a "hugger") and assist other UND grads in Recombining the Sugar Beet DNA to create a GMO Chimera which will replace High Fructose Corn Syrup as the sweetener of choice for Nestle, Coca Cola and Pepsi (contracts still under negotiation but ultimately worth about 300 million annually to our LLC).

Added to your post to better reflect your awesomeness.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Added to your post to better reflect your awesomeness.

Took awhile to get that egg off your face?

When you accuse me of being something that I'm not, I will defend myself. I'm sorry that when I did, you looked like a fool.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Okay...someone...convince me that when the team was given the "Sioux" name in 1930, that it was done because of the honor and respect that was genuinely felt for the Sioux people. It was done because those at the university in charge of coming up with a new name felt the Sioux were brave, honest, hard working and of high moral character, right?
 
Note here ... it was a plethora of legal opinions, cost and reticence to litigate that brought UND to come to an agreement with the NCAA which it will be violating by continuing to use this name.
We will not be violating the agreement by not changing the name.

Is it windy that high up on a horse?
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Okay...someone...convince me that when the team was given the "Sioux" name in 1930, that it was done because of the honor and respect that was genuinely felt for the Sioux people. It was done because those at the university in charge of coming up with a new name felt the Sioux were brave, honest, hard working and of high moral character, right?

I don't believe there is any "source" out there which says why the name was picked. The University used to play a message before athletic events (not sure if they still do) stating that the name was picked to honor the Sioux due to their courage, honor, bravery and ability to overcome adversity (not an exact quote).

Given that, it wouldn't make any sense to pick a nickname of a group that you didn't like or thought were terrible, unproductive people.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Please just stop responding to these fine gentleman. You aren't going to change their minds and they are just trying to irritate you. Thank You.
 
Last edited:
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

I don't believe there is any "source" out there which says why the name was picked.

Not suprising since you took history at UND. As documented by USCHO Writer Chris Lerch back in 2005 the moniker was chosen because ...

North Dakota's sports teams were known as the Flickertails until 1930, when, in response to a heated rivalry with North Dakota State ("the Bison"), the name was changed to "Fighting Sioux." Documents in the UND archives show that honoring Native Americans had nothing to do with the change. The reasons given at the time:

1) Sioux are a good exterminating agent for the Bison.
2) They (Sioux) are warlike, of fine physique and bearing.
3) The word Sioux is easily rhymed for yells and songs.

— Dakota Student (UND student newspaper), 1930

When there were exactly ZERO Native American's enrolled at the school. In 2005 there were TWENTY-ONE Native American related organizations on the UND campus that signed a letter calling for a change in nickname and logo indicating they did not feel "honored". But why listen to them right?

You can read the entire USCHO article at this site since it is not available on USCHO.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

In 2005 there were TWENTY-ONE Native American related organizations on the UND campus that signed a letter calling for a change in nickname and logo indicating they did not feel "honored". But why listen to them right?

Well, and as I said earlier, we COULD listen to the overwhelming majority of Sioux members who voted in favor of letting UND use the nickname. But by all means, let's let a bunch of white, pc zealots speak for Native Americans...they've been doing it for the last 500+ years.

EDIT: I'm also interested in what "documents" Lerch looked at. He most likely looked at the Dakota Student papers that were published AFTER the nickname had already been changed. That does nothing to prove why the nickname was chosen in the first place.
 
Last edited:
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Also, FWIW, patent lawyers make pretty good money ;).

In the immortal words of one Lee Corso, "Not so fast, my friend." Neither of your listed degrees automatically qualifies you to sit for the patent bar, and with a history degree, you may well not have enough hours in biology, chemistry or physics. http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/grb.pdf

Just sayin'.

FREE law school career counseling...whatever will USCHO.com think of next?
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

In the immortal words of one Lee Corso, "Not so fast, my friend." Neither of your listed degrees automatically qualifies you to sit for the patent bar, and with a history degree, you may well not have enough hours in biology, chemistry or physics. http://www.uspto.gov/ip/boards/oed/grb.pdf

Just sayin'.

FREE law school career counseling...whatever will USCHO.com think of next?

Fortunately DU allows law students to get a dual degree with the school of engineering and computer sciences. ;)
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Well, and as I said earlier, we COULD listen to the overwhelming majority of Sioux members who voted in favor of letting UND use the nickname. But by all means, let's let a bunch of white, pc zealots speak for Native Americans...they've been doing it for the last 500+ years.

Yes. Don't address the Chris Lerch points at all. Instead, try to redirect the issue under the banner of decrying "Political Correctness" as everyone hates that sort of thing. Naturally, that's a red herring since the people that call for the name change list reason after reason for it while supplying loads and loads of actual data from history, sociology and anthropology which without reservation shows how European "conquerors" used varying methodologies to repress and deny aboriginal people their basic human rights all over the world.

Instead .. I'll address Lerch's points ..

As to #1 -- it clearly displays that the moniker was chosen for it's symbolic ability as an "extermination" tool for Bison. How much can I expound on that? Not much ... the inferiority complex of UND students in 1930 is clear. Flickertails could break a Bison's ankle by strategically placing their burrow in the right place. Otherwise, Bison both literally and figuratively WALKED ALL OVER them.

As to #2 -- Most all Native American's were FAR FROM being "warlike". On the contrary, North American aboriginals were quite conservative in their approach to dealing with issues that otherwise lead societies into a war. They preferred their own style of litigation and communication to solve whatever regional issues that separated them from their neighbors. I don't blame foolish flatlander rubes in 1930 for not knowing that. But we know that to be the case now since we've finally started allowing Native Americans to express their history rather than applying convenient and useful rationalizations from when we conquered them. Yes, the victors write history ... know why? So they can justify the immoral excesses they used to become the victors.

As to #3 -- Flickertails is hard to rhyme. LOL. Nuff said ...

There were the reasons that UND became the "Fighting Sioux". There was no intent to honor anyone and professing such now is a complete and utter lie.
 
Last edited:
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

There were the reasons that UND became the "Fighting Sioux". There was no intent to honor anyone and professing such now is a complete and utter lie.
If anything the "honoring" of Native Americans was used as a justification for keeping the nickname.
 
Yes. Don't address the Chris Lerch points at all. Instead, try to redirect the issue under the banner of decrying "Political Correctness" as everyone hates that sort of thing. Naturally, that's a red herring since the people that call for the name change list reason after reason for it while supplying loads and loads of actual data from history, sociology and anthropology which without reservation shows how European "conquerors" used varying methodologies to repress and deny aboriginal people their basic human rights all over the world.

Instead .. I'll address Lerch's points ..

As to #1 -- it clearly displays that the moniker was chosen for it's symbolic ability as an "extermination" tool for Bison. How much can I expound on that? Not much ... the inferiority complex of UND students in 1930 is clear. Flickertails could break a Bison's ankle by strategically placing their burrow in the right place. Otherwise, Bison both literally and figuratively WALKED ALL OVER them.

As to #2 -- Most all Native American's were FAR FROM being "warlike". On the contrary, North American aboriginals were quite conservative in their approach to dealing with issues that otherwise lead societies into a war. They preferred their own style of litigation and communication to solve whatever regional issues that separated them from their neighbors. I don't blame foolish flatlander rubes in 1930 for not knowing that. But we know that to be the case now since we've finally started allowing Native Americans to express their history rather than applying convenient and useful rationalizations from when we conquered them. Yes, the victors write history ... know why? So they can justify the immoral excesses they used to become the victors.

As to #3 -- Flickertails is hard to rhyme. LOL. Nuff said ...

There were the reasons that UND became the "Fighting Sioux". There was no intent to honor anyone and professing such now is a complete and utter lie.
He did. He added an edit while you were responding.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Whatever you think of the NCAA's intent to reduce or eliminate derogatory nicknames, its enforcment of the policy does not make a lot of sense. First, the NCAA determines that the logo/nickname/mascott is hostile and abusive. Then it allows the native people who are allegedly being abused to acquiesce to that treatment by vote or some other kind of affirmation. If the NCAA truly believes a logo or nickname is abusive, then how can it justify allowing the abused people acquiesce its use?
If a tribe's government decides today that the use of a logo is OK, then I guess that means the NCAA must conclude either that it was wrong in believing the logo was abusive or that the tribe has agreed to the abuse and the NCAA is willing to wash its hands of any responsibility. It seems to me that if the NCAA truly believed the harm caused by some nicknames/logos was important enough to justify the policy in the first place, it would be wrong to sit back and allow the abuse to continue once it has been identified. It was the NCAA's paternalistic approach that started this whole thing in the first place, so it seems more than a little hypocritical for them to bail if the tribes consent.

Tribal governments are notoriously, well, tribal and subject to change. And what if the new tribal government 5 years down the road changes its position? Does that mean the use of the logo was not previously offensive but has become so or that the prior use was offensive but the people must continue to suffer because the prior government was just too ignorant or corrupt to stop the abuse? By bringing the tribes' approval into the enforcement equation, the NCAA is actually treating use of nicknames/logos a property right--not a policy to protect native tribes from abuse.

I apologize for the ramble. Not making a lot of sense. It would be nice to see the name stay, but for the right reasons.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

We will not be violating the agreement by not changing the name.

Sure, it will not be 'violated' because UND never promised that it would stop using the name without the requisite approvals. But the Settlement Agreement will effectively be nullified and the NCAA will be free to impose whatever sanctions it was willing to forgo under the Agreement. Violation or not, that sure sounds like a bad outcome to me.

Of course, UND is stuck between the proverbial rock (NCAA) and hard place (newly passed state law). I think that the last chapter in this saga has yet to be written.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Burd's point is a good one. It's not "hostile and abusive" if the tribes agree to the use of the name, but it is "hostile and abusive" if they don't? I would like the NC$$ to clarify that point. So PC has no bearing on the nickname? I think it's all about PC. Just ask a DU fan what they think about the Boone issue.
 
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Whatever you think of the NCAA's intent to reduce or eliminate derogatory nicknames, its enforcment of the policy does not make a lot of sense. First, the NCAA determines that the logo/nickname/mascott is hostile and abusive. Then it allows the native people who are allegedly being abused to acquiesce to that treatment by vote or some other kind of affirmation. If the NCAA truly believes a logo or nickname is abusive, then how can it justify allowing the abused people acquiesce its use?
No disagreement from me on this. Name defenders on this board should elect you to argue for their side here.

If a tribe's government decides today that the use of a logo is OK, then I guess that means the NCAA must conclude either that it was wrong in believing the logo was abusive or that the tribe has agreed to the abuse and the NCAA is willing to wash its hands of any responsibility. It seems to me that if the NCAA truly believed the harm caused by some nicknames/logos was important enough to justify the policy in the first place, it would be wrong to sit back and allow the abuse to continue once it has been identified. It was the NCAA's paternalistic approach that started this whole thing in the first place, so it seems more than a little hypocritical for them to bail if the tribes consent. Tribal governments are notoriously, well, tribal and subject to change. And what if the new tribal government 5 years down the road changes its position? Does that mean the use of the logo was not previously offensive but has become so or that the prior use was offensive but the people must continue to suffer because the prior government was just too ignorant or corrupt to stop the abuse? By bringing the tribes' approval into the enforcement equation, the NCAA is actually treating use of nicknames/logos a property right--not a policy to protect native tribes from abuse.
It's a bit of a mixed bag for the NCAA in that there are varying degrees of commercialization tribal governments themselves directly or indirectly allow. The NCAA is morally correct (yes .. and POLITICALLY correct -- that phrase really terrifies people doesn't it?) but has implemented it's decision poorly. No big surprise that any institutionalized entity is prone to stupidity. Nevertheless, the original intent is nothing less than the "right thing to do". I'd support the removal of EVERY "Native American related or based" nickname within the NCAA's purview.

I apologize for the ramble. Not making a lot of sense. It would be nice to see the name stay, but for the right reasons.
It would be nice to see the name go ... also for the right reasons.
 
Back
Top