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Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

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Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Fox "News" was even more critical of it's own poll. Lou Dobbs reported a rival poll instead (that favored Romney...what a shock) and Dick Morris said people shouldn't pay any attention to the poll (I'm sure Fox appreciates one of their own guys saying people shouldn't pay any attention to a poll for which they paid good money).

The Fox poll, and many others, measured registered voters. Since about half of registered voters bother to actually, you know, vote, why should we give a sh*t what they think? And that goes for any poll with any result, ever.

I must say, you've really got Foxophobia bad, with feverish notions about what they would have said if you'd been watching. I'd suggest taking a couple of aspirins and putting a cold compress on your fevered brow.

Any incumbent president has a huge advantage. An incumbent Democrat an even bigger advantage. And His Panderness the biggest advantage of all, since the national media are all anxious to have his love child.
 
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Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Who needs a poll when you got Romney(not a commie) running. Obama would have to be the weakest incumbent ever not to beat him.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

True. I have friends and co-workers and neighbors that are Native Americans or Mormons, and they're just part of the mix with everyone else.
Heck, down there you've probably got a couple neighbors that are Native American AND Mormon.
Not getting into the faldarall about whether the minority thing should effect anything but my immediate thought about proof was 'what??!!'

I am an amateur genealogist and the thought that someone can't prove backgound so they should not claim it is laughable if you are relying on records from this country. My family deeply believes we came over on the 2nd Mayflower. THis has been passed down for generations. I have been at it for 20 yrs and can't find the last link. Records in the US are abominable when compared to just about everywhere else. They are missing, incomplete, incorrectly documented, contradictary and depending on the time period lacking in info. Many minority people puposefully labeled themself something else because to be labeled correctly would subject them to prejudices or in many cases they just didn't think it was important to ask the question in a way that would get the right answer. In Mass the records are like a patchwork quilt.

Any person who is serious about doing this type of research wouldn't dismiss something just because they could not find proof. They just label it as unconfirmed yet unless proof was found against it. Even if that happens do you blame the person for saying what they have been told? I can't say I would expect someone to want me to provide proof of my ancestry if I was claiming something that remote.
My ma couldn't even get a copy of her birth certificate to get a passport. Honestly. She was adopted as an infant. She was both born and adopted in Chicago. Her mother had her adoption papers, but refused to give them to her (long LONG story) so she tried to get SOMETHING from the state. They told her that her adoption papers and second birth certificate (the one with the name my grandparents gave her) was destroyed when a record room flooded, or some such nonsense, and her original birth certificate (which wouldn't have helped anyway because it has a name that isn't her name on it) was locked up and she couldn't have it. And my ma is only in her sixties. Until VERY recently, record keeping in this country was godawful! (She threatened my grandma that if she didn't hand over the adoption papers, granddma would never see any of us again. Papers relinquished. Passport obtained.)
The comments are always the best part of news articles about politics and car accidents. Here a goody from that article.

"If it's true, you may be the ignorant one, for trusting the biggest cover up of all times. 2) Why is this on the top of the news, when today was a MAJOR bust of a huge number of Mexicans in Chandler. Are THEY legal? and 3) Oh yes, what about Obama's illegal alien uncle and aunt. If his family members are illegal, why aren't MORE people questioning HIS citizenship."

Jesus. I have an uncle who came here illegally. If you guys want, I'll scan in my birth certificate so you can all see it.
 
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Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Certainly, at that time they couldn't have a staff of only white males, they had to have a goal to have a diverse faculty, she had to know that reporting herself as a minority would absolutely give her an advantage in an environment that would naturally strive for diversity.

When was she hired? You'd have to go quite a longs ways back to expect there weren't enough non-white males qualified to earn a place amongst their faculty on merit alone. That's not to say there aren't 'quotas' being filled behind closed doors nor that she didn't misrepresent herself, but in the bigger picture it shouldn't even be necessary to consciously hire based upon such practices and expectations. As someone that has a hand in the hiring of managers that work for me in a company with 11,000 employees globally, I wouldn't have to go more than two interviews without meething someone that isn't just like me. :)

[edit] re: previous discussion. When I was a kid my best friend was a kid with the last name Rosentein. I had no idea it might conjure up another religious affiliation until I invited him to church. ;)

[edit II] When I went to Bahrain to run one of our offices I had a staff of about a dozen folks. 5 Bahrainis, a woman each from Iran, Ireland, England, Australia, India (of Portuguese Catholic descent) the Philipines and Sri Lanka and a guy from Singapore. It was a challenge to say the least to manage such a diverse staff (including the feelings many Bahrainis held toward anyone from Singapore, Sri Lanka and the Philipenes) and it was my first time as a professional outside the US, but luckily I had previously already seen much of the US and South America so I had a little perspective to build upon but of course so so much to learn. :)
 
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Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

When was she hired? You'd have to go quite a longs ways back to expect there weren't enough non-white males qualified to earn a place amongst their faculty on merit alone. That's not to say there aren't 'quotas' being filled behind closed doors nor that she didn't misrepresent herself, but in the bigger picture it shouldn't even be necessary to consciously hire based upon such practices and expectations. As someone that has a hand in the hiring of managers that work for me in a company with 11,000 employees globally, I wouldn't have to go more than two interviews without meething someone that isn't just like me. :)

[edit] re: previous discussion. When I was a kid my best friend was a kid with the last name Rosentein. I had no idea it might conjure up another religious affiliation until I invited him to church. ;)

[edit II] When I went to Bahrain to run one of our offices I had a staff of about a dozen folks. 5 Bahrainis, a woman each from Iran, Ireland, England, Australia, India (of Portuguese Catholic descent) the Philipines and Sri Lanka and a guy from Singapore. It was a challenge to say the least to manage such a diverse staff (including the feelings many Bahrainis held toward anyone from Singapore, Sri Lanka and the Philipenes) and it was my first time as a professional outside the US, but luckily I had previously already seen much of the US and South America so I had a little perspective to build upon but of course so so much to learn. :)

This racial awareness business can lead to some bizarre consequences. I've posted before about the NBC affiliate in Houston (channel 2) hiring a new, black anchorwoman from NY. She was lovely, poised, talented (a real major market anchor) and her very dark skin looked great on camera. Just one teensy problem. She wasn't black. She was of mediterranean extraction. After hyping her acquisition, she was outta there in a heart beat, with no explanation. Channel 2's incredible blunder was uncovered by the Post and Chronicle. I'm assuming she made them pay 'til they bled for their incomprehensible stupidity. IIRC, she went back to NY, with a wad of Texas cash in her jeans.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Forgive the long post, don't read it if you can't focus for more than 3 lines:

first on the absence of much knowledge on the subject on here...like it or not, believe it or not, seen it or not, organizations not only have to report their statistics of minority applications and hires, they are keenly aware of the public perception of not having diversity.

While there may or may not be shortages of minority candidates in all positions, don't assume that every job opening is pursued by a properly diverse pool of applicants. The situation can be tricky, while you can't/shouldn't say 'we need a woman, regardless of qualification' there is clearly a concern that you can't be 100% men.

So, you work hard in advance, make sure you have identified qualified women and attract one or more to apply...good stuff, no favoritism or quotas, just proper recruiting of diverse candidates. So, you've got one woman, is that enough? Think the government, your trustees, your stockholders etc. would be satisfied if your board, executives, faculty, judges, cabinet, coaching staff was 90% white men and 10% white women? Could you look somebody in the eye and tell them that was by accident? No, so you need to make sure you are also recruiting people of color and other factors of diversity. You find me a head of HR that wouldn't 'love' to have a black, asian or hispanic woman in a key role and I'll show you a liar. It may only be one person but it counts in EEOC stats as a woman and a minority.

If you go to the faculty page of harvard law school they have a picture of what on the front page....hmmm, an asian woman...is that just happenstance? Is she the most tenured professor there? The most published? The most famous?

As for appearance, without counting, it appears just the Harvard Law School has well over 150 faculty. If you take 5 seconds to think about it, they are likely never all on campus at one time and i would doubt 50% have ever been in one place before. Now, would any one student know, see or take a class with all 150 professors? No

Would the EEOC show up and demand to see all of them in one room? No Would Jesse jackson, the asian student coalition or any other party say they would assess the diversity of the workforce from a picture or who they met on their trip to Harvard? No, they would look at the stats. If the workforce was represented on paper as 30% women, 25% african american, 18% asian etc. then nobody is going to say "hey would you line up all those asians so I can get a good look at them and make sure they are really asian." Remember, diversity is everything from age to disability to gender to race to sexual orientation. Imagine if harvard Law School had 150 professors and not one was Jewish, muslim or another religion. Now, religion isn't an EEOC stat obviously, but don't think the school isn't aware of this type of diversity. Does anybody really thing the SCOTUS is accidentally diverse? Are they the best judges in the country? You all know how this works, even if you haven't been behind the scenes.

Granted, if students, parents and other faculty saw reporting of 18% but never actually saw an asian professor that would generate questions. But unless the school was lying completely, that wouldn't occur.

As for Ms. Warren...the issue isn't if she is a minority, although for EEOC purposes there is a 'cutoff' for defining oneself in a class...so for all of the "well what if i was 1/1,000 caveman, could i delclare that" moronic statements, the answer legally is no. So, the point trying to be avoided by Warren and her supporters isn't whether she really had a great, great granny that was a native american, it is whether she would claim the status of minority selectively in a situation in which being a minority could provide her benefit. As I said earlier, it isn't like Harvard would take a minority with a mail order JD over a qualified caucasian...but if you knew that part of the formula would give preference to minorities and you suddenly became one or suddenly remembered that old family story, that is an integrity issue in my view. For background, if the person wasn't even sure they were, had no documentation they were and was not familiar with anything other than a family story of some native american blood, then that wouldn't help their cause if i was assessing the situation. If they had more than a cookbook and a family story that demonstrated they do, when appropriate, report/describe/relate themselves as a minority, I'd say that while being only 1/100th of something doesn't necessarily make you asian for reporting purposes...at least they are consistent in that designation.

If your response is 'well, that isn't proof she got benefit", I would say that the faculty was going to demonstrate diversity one way or another, whether she should have been there or not, a person with a likely more credible claim to be a minority, and likely equally qualified, didn't get the job. The "sorry, I can't come up with anything more than an old family story" minority got the job.

That she has spent so much time claiming to support the rights of the downtrodden, and may have, I repeat, may have, prevented a more legitimate minority candidate from attaining such a lofty role by stretching the definition of minority to suit her employment ambitions would be why it shouldn't be just Scott Brown asking the question. That is why I'm asking the question.

I don't care if they leave the senate seat vacant, I don't think her possible ethical weakness makes her opponent a better politician, just that she wouldn't rise to the level of trusted person if she would stoop to such a tactic and then offer such a convenient explanation.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Forgive the long post, don't read it if you can't focus for more than 3 lines:

first on the absence of much knowledge on the subject on here...like it or not, believe it or not, seen it or not, organizations not only have to report their statistics of minority applications and hires, they are keenly aware of the public perception of not having diversity.

While there may or may not be shortages of minority candidates in all positions, don't assume that every job opening is pursued by a properly diverse pool of applicants. The situation can be tricky, while you can't/shouldn't say 'we need a woman, regardless of qualification' there is clearly a concern that you can't be 100% men.

So, you work hard in advance, make sure you have identified qualified women and attract one or more to apply...good stuff, no favoritism or quotas, just proper recruiting of diverse candidates. So, you've got one woman, is that enough? Think the government, your trustees, your stockholders etc. would be satisfied if your board, executives, faculty, judges, cabinet, coaching staff was 90% white men and 10% white women? Could you look somebody in the eye and tell them that was by accident? No, so you need to make sure you are also recruiting people of color and other factors of diversity. You find me a head of HR that wouldn't 'love' to have a black, asian or hispanic woman in a key role and I'll show you a liar. It may only be one person but it counts in EEOC stats as a woman and a minority.

If you go to the faculty page of harvard law school they have a picture of what on the front page....hmmm, an asian woman...is that just happenstance? Is she the most tenured professor there? The most published? The most famous?

As for appearance, without counting, it appears just the Harvard Law School has well over 150 faculty. If you take 5 seconds to think about it, they are likely never all on campus at one time and i would doubt 50% have ever been in one place before. Now, would any one student know, see or take a class with all 150 professors? No

Would the EEOC show up and demand to see all of them in one room? No Would Jesse jackson, the asian student coalition or any other party say they would assess the diversity of the workforce from a picture or who they met on their trip to Harvard? No, they would look at the stats. If the workforce was represented on paper as 30% women, 25% african american, 18% asian etc. then nobody is going to say "hey would you line up all those asians so I can get a good look at them and make sure they are really asian." Remember, diversity is everything from age to disability to gender to race to sexual orientation. Imagine if harvard Law School had 150 professors and not one was Jewish, muslim or another religion. Now, religion isn't an EEOC stat obviously, but don't think the school isn't aware of this type of diversity. Does anybody really thing the SCOTUS is accidentally diverse? Are they the best judges in the country? You all know how this works, even if you haven't been behind the scenes.

Granted, if students, parents and other faculty saw reporting of 18% but never actually saw an asian professor that would generate questions. But unless the school was lying completely, that wouldn't occur.

As for Ms. Warren...the issue isn't if she is a minority, although for EEOC purposes there is a 'cutoff' for defining oneself in a class...so for all of the "well what if i was 1/1,000 caveman, could i delclare that" moronic statements, the answer legally is no. So, the point trying to be avoided by Warren and her supporters isn't whether she really had a great, great granny that was a native american, it is whether she would claim the status of minority selectively in a situation in which being a minority could provide her benefit. As I said earlier, it isn't like Harvard would take a minority with a mail order JD over a qualified caucasian...but if you knew that part of the formula would give preference to minorities and you suddenly became one or suddenly remembered that old family story, that is an integrity issue in my view. For background, if the person wasn't even sure they were, had no documentation they were and was not familiar with anything other than a family story of some native american blood, then that wouldn't help their cause if i was assessing the situation. If they had more than a cookbook and a family story that demonstrated they do, when appropriate, report/describe/relate themselves as a minority, I'd say that while being only 1/100th of something doesn't necessarily make you asian for reporting purposes...at least they are consistent in that designation.

If your response is 'well, that isn't proof she got benefit", I would say that the faculty was going to demonstrate diversity one way or another, whether she should have been there or not, a person with a likely more credible claim to be a minority, and likely equally qualified, didn't get the job. The "sorry, I can't come up with anything more than an old family story" minority got the job.

That she has spent so much time claiming to support the rights of the downtrodden, and may have, I repeat, may have, prevented a more legitimate minority candidate from attaining such a lofty role by stretching the definition of minority to suit her employment ambitions would be why it shouldn't be just Scott Brown asking the question. That is why I'm asking the question.

I don't care if they leave the senate seat vacant, I don't think her possible ethical weakness makes her opponent a better politician, just that she wouldn't rise to the level of trusted person if she would stoop to such a tactic and then offer such a convenient explanation.

Nice post. If Fauxcahontas was working on the line, stamping out wheel covers for F-150's and tried to claim Indian heritage based on family folk lore and a cookbook, almost nobody would care or notice. But she's a faculty member at America's presumed best law school. And she checked the box claiming Indian heritage and Harvard repeatedly trumpeted their "Native American" professor. People in a position to know say she's extremely well qualified for the job, maybe even gifted, which suggests this "little white lie" didn't factor significantly, if at all, into her hiring. Then why do it? Well, that explanation about being invited to Pow Wows and rain dances doesn't pass the laugh test. It's a stupid, obvious lie. The rational explanation is that she thought claiming minority status would inure to her benefit somehow. She's a lawyer, evidently a d*mn good lawyer, shouldn't she have been more careful about claiming minority status, on an official document, based on cheek bones and cookbooks and non-existant marriage applications? These are not unreasonable questions to raise in the case of a Harvard law professor. What did she think was in it for her to make a spurious claim?

The issue is not whether her ethical lapses make Scott Brown a better politician. The issue is whether the people of Massachusetts want to send a serial liar to the senate. She has shown herself capable of lying, on official documents, repeatedly, in order to advance her career or enhance her status or something. And it's not like she made any effort at all to correct the "misunderstanding" if that, in fact, was the case. This went on for a decade. And her "Indian" status was proudly proclaimed by spokesmen for the university and in the student news paper. To me, this is nothing more or less than gaming the system. The lady makes nearly a million dollars a year. Is this cheap posing really necessary? And if we're going to advantage someone based on Native American heritage, shouldn't it be someone who has succeeded, despite the grinding poverty of the Navajo reservation at Window Rock? As opposed to a country club "Indian?"
 
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As someone keenly in tune with our hiring practices I can confidently aver this is not an all-encompassing real world occurrence.

Only one sentence.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

As someone keenly in tune with our hiring practices I can confidently aver this is not an all-encompassing real world occurrence.

Only one sentence.

I'm sure that's true. And one reason has to be the growing number of qualified candidates.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

As someone keenly in tune with our hiring practices I can confidently aver this is not an all-encompassing real world occurrence.

Only one sentence.

As someone keenly aware of the senior level hiring practices in several fortune 500 companies, several not for profits and several private companies, I can confidently say you are right. In 25 years I've never seen someone claim to be a minority on a job application with no facts to support that status.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

As someone keenly aware of the senior level hiring practices in several fortune 500 companies, several not for profits and several private companies, I can confidently say you are right. In 25 years I've never seen someone claim to be a minority on a job application with no facts to support that status.

Like Principal Rooney in Ferris: "Drag her old bones in here. . ." And don't forget to bring your family newsletter and that cookbook. Oops, she plagiarized those recipes, better leave the cook book back in the wigwam. Mark Steyn called her the candidate of the TeePee party.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Anti-NATO Occupy trash went up against Chicago cops today. While the cops were more restrained than they were during the '68 convention, it's clear they weren't going to allow punks to take over the streets with their little black flags and their little chants and their tiny brains. Chicago cops have a reputation going all the way back to the Haymarket riot, of having very little tolerance for this kind of provocation. It's good to see them maintaining that reputation.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/

One of the turkeys went for a "ride" on the front bumper of a police van. Sorta reminded me of the occutrash clown who did a WWE move when the wheel of a NYC police cycle came close to, but did not touch his leg. Remember? These people are losers and they aren't helping His Communityorganizerness at all.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

Not getting into the faldarall about whether the minority thing should effect anything but my immediate thought about proof was 'what??!!'

I am an amateur genealogist and the thought that someone can't prove backgound so they should not claim it is laughable if you are relying on records from this country. My family deeply believes we came over on the 2nd Mayflower. THis has been passed down for generations. I have been at it for 20 yrs and can't find the last link. Records in the US are abominable when compared to just about everywhere else. They are missing, incomplete, incorrectly documented, contradictary and depending on the time period lacking in info. Many minority people puposefully labeled themself something else because to be labeled correctly would subject them to prejudices or in many cases they just didn't think it was important to ask the question in a way that would get the right answer. In Mass the records are like a patchwork quilt.

Any person who is serious about doing this type of research wouldn't dismiss something just because they could not find proof. They just label it as unconfirmed yet unless proof was found against it. Even if that happens do you blame the person for saying what they have been told? I can't say I would expect someone to want me to provide proof of my ancestry if I was claiming something that remote.

In some parts of the country, Native Americans are really touchy about people who claim ancestry based solely on "family lore" without adequate documentation because there is so much money at stake....casino money. Some Native American tribes distribute casino revenues to all members of the tribe; they are not going to be passing it around to anyone merely because of "family lore."

It may be one thing to be doing amateur genealogy for recreation; it's another thing entirely when substantial sums of cash are at stake....now, I realise that with her combined salary of $980,000, Ms Warren doesn't need casino money and probably never claimed it; and probably did believe it was true; she kept this story alive when she could have ended it with a proper show of humility and contrition at the outset.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

All these wordy explanations are nice, but it still amounts to political race baiting. This is different from racism, as again I don't think Sen Brown is a racist. However, when you adopt a campaign to get people to vote for you or against your opponent based on outrage over some made up controversy over preferential treatment for minorities you're playing a dangerous game. In fact its no different than the "Ricketts Plan" that was recently shelved only because it became public.

Take pirate's post for example. You've got the strawman argument that nobody is making "As for Ms. Warren...the issue isn't if she is a minority, although for EEOC purposes there is a 'cutoff' for defining oneself in a class...so for all of the "well what if i was 1/1,000 caveman, could i delclare that" moronic statements, the answer legally is no. "

Then you've got the creeping insinuation " it is whether she would claim the status of minority selectively in a situation in which being a minority could provide her benefit. ". So, the fact that Harvard has already said it had nothing to do with her being hired apparently is unknown to pirate (unlikely given his apparent familiarity with the story)....or is an attempt to justify repeated insinuations in the absence of any proof that she 'got ahead' by claming Indian heritage.

But he goes deeper: "but if you knew that part of the formula would give preference to minorities and you suddenly became one or suddenly remembered that old family story, that is an integrity issue in my view." - Again, do you have *any* indication that she suddenly remembered being a minority in time for a job interview?

Finally, he bring it home, as all he cares about is those poor minorities that Warren has apparently wronged: "That she has spent so much time claiming to support the rights of the downtrodden, and may have, I repeat, may have, prevented a more legitimate minority candidate from attaining such a lofty role by stretching the definition of minority to suit her employment ambitions ". Well, it was at least nice of you to qualify this with a "may have, I repeat, may have".

Bottom line is, you are engaging in blatant race baiting along the lines of the Willie Horton ads from years ago. You may not like that, but that's the fact. Based on nothing more than a woman saying she had Indian heritage, which is entirely possible although not officially documented, you've now supposed that 1) she actively plotted to take advantage of diverse faculty ratios to advance her career going so far as to suddenly remember a family story when it suited her, and 2) in the process she's beaten out countless other "true minority" candidates for these jobs solely on the basis of her deceit. All this from a legal profession register and a cookbook. Is the cookbook the smoking gun?
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

In some parts of the country, Native Americans are really touchy about people who claim ancestry based solely on "family lore" without adequate documentation because there is so much money at stake....casino money. Some Native American tribes distribute casino revenues to all members of the tribe; they are not going to be passing it around to anyone merely because of "family lore."

It may be one thing to be doing amateur genealogy for recreation; it's another thing entirely when substantial sums of cash are at stake....now, I realise that with her combined salary of $980,000, Ms Warren doesn't need casino money and probably never claimed it; and probably did believe it was true; she kept this story alive when she could have ended it with a proper show of humility and contrition at the outset.
Judging someone on what they did before it was not politically correct now or before large sums of money were involved is silly. I keep my story alive because some where there has to be a reason it was passed down. I think the whole getting your panties in a twist about this is dam silly. There are certainly more important things to worry about than people fishing around about stuff like this and making a huge deal of it. I imagine it is a little more important to look at her platform on issues and compare it to the other candidate. What an odd thought.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

If the shoe were on the other foot the Echo Chamber would be falling all over itself defending their guy. This is about the letter after Warren's name, nothing more.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

In some parts of the country, Native Americans are really touchy about people who claim ancestry based solely on "family lore" without adequate documentation.
I believe its now against the law in the State of Maine.
 
Re: Elections 2012: You must choose the lesser of two weevils

If the shoe were on the other foot the Echo Chamber would be falling all over itself defending their guy. This is about the letter after Warren's name, nothing more.
The water carrying here for someone who lied is all about the letter after her name also
 
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