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Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

On a side note, I was curious and looked some stuff up. Canada's "free speech" laws are ****ed up. Someone files a complaint against you and you get dragged in front of a "Human Rights Commission" and fined up to $10k.

In an exchange during the Marc Lemire case, lead CHRC investigator Dean Steacy was asked "What value do you give freedom of speech when you investigate?" Steacy responded: "Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value. It's not my job to give value to an American concept."
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

on a side note, i was curious and looked some stuff up. Canada's "free speech" laws are ****ed up. Someone files a complaint against you and you get dragged in front of a "human rights commission" and fined up to $10k.

jfc...
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Being non-religious/doubter makes you much less of a target than if you stick to some sort of religious beliefs when the society you live in has turned a different direction that makes you choose between your beliefs and conforming to society's expectations/demands. History is rife with such situations, whereas folks who, so to speak, sit out the issue or aren't specifically identified with a side, are for the most part ok. There are exceptions, but they are that, exceptions.

No one is targeted with respect to gay marriage and it sure as heck wouldn't force you make any choices differently than those you currently make.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

No one is targeted with respect to gay marriage and it sure as heck wouldn't force you make any choices differently than those you currently make.

I'd imagine Mr. Cathy and the company he heads would beg to differ.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

On a side note, I was curious and looked some stuff up. Canada's "free speech" laws are ****ed up. Someone files a complaint against you and you get dragged in front of a "Human Rights Commission" and fined up to $10k.
Apparently that also includes sermons from the pulpit. Have to find the reference, but I think a sermon against gay marriage got the priest/bishop/pastor hauled before the tribunal.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Although I've never owned a gun and most likely never will, I recognize [that many people don't have a practical understanding of the issue because they are too inflamed with prejudice].

Said elsewhere:
> to a "gun" owner, typically gun = hunting rifle = utilitarian value added.
> to an urban "gun" control advocate, typically gun = pistol = violent crime

The two sides can never really agree until we re-define the term "gun."


In my direct anectodal personal experience, the more familiarity people have with "guns" at an early age, the more respectfully they treat "guns." One of the best things we could do would be to have every five-year old in the country fire a gun: the noise and recoil would be so daunting, it would leave a profound impression. To me it makes very good practical sense to have the use, cleaning, care, and storage of guns be part of every elementary school curriculum throughout the United States.

First of all, this would help bolster our national defense: if we have to cut back on military spending, we need to improve our military preparedness in other areas. I think having every high school student undergo military training would be a great unifying element our society sorely needs. How important are our political differences if an implacable foe is dedicated to our annihilation? We need to band together to survive as a nation.

Ironically, the more prepared we are collectively to defend ourselves, the less likely it becomes that our enemies will want to engage in an all-out trial of strength in a "survive-or-perish" contest.

What nice unintended consequences!

We have people who are tangibly reminded through everyday behavior that what unites us is greater than our differences, that there are bad people in this world who wish us harm and we need always to be vigilent, and we are in better physical shape and more optomistic in general because we know we have power to control the outcome of our lives.


yes, I suggest universal military training for every youth in this country at an age-appropriate time, sort of like a "Peace Corp" except its a "Peace through Defense" Corp. I also suggest universal training in gun safety starting in elementary school would be the best remedy to out-of-control gun violence: teach respect while the mind / person is still malleable and impressionable.

The very worst time in a man's life for him to fire a gun for the first time is during adolescence ("think this through with me...."). So either "teach your children well" or wait until adulthood or never learn at al.

The first time I fired a gun was at father / son night at the rec center....with my son.


One of those "throw-away" moments in life that stick with you.....

for two years we lived in a small town in Wyoming. One night at the local bar two folks were reminiscing...."do you remermber the murder?" "yeah, when was that..fifteen years ago?" that town had more guns than people. Most of the people hunted to support their subsistence living. The ungulant population had to be culled every year to prevent over-grazing and subsequent mass starvation. it was a beautiful practical example of the "circle of life": absent natural predators, state wildlife commissioners would determine how many hunting permits to issue each year for each different ungulate, people would bring home a month's worth of steak, and the herds would be at optimal population level for sustainable existence.



City people have no clue.




Country people have little clue of the obverse.
 
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Political campaigns differentiate between paid and earned media. And they really covet the latter. I say that because it's my understanding that Priorities USA, which created the "Romney killed my wife" spot has not yet put it on the air anywhere. This is a tried and true practice--create a spot which crosses the line, then have that spot "fact checked" and repeatedly played by the media. Thus accomplishing for only the production costs, what would have cost lots of money to get out there to the public. I can't say for certain this was Priorities USA's goal, but it begins to look that way. I've seen several articles contending they're having a very difficult time raising money and probably can't afford major buys for the spot.

LBJ's famous "daisy picking" spot in '64, IIRC, ran only once. And in those days, there were no cable news outlets and internet to make the spot available to just about everyone. It's clear to me His Newtoneness is reprising LBJ's strategy.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I'd imagine Mr. Cathy and the company he heads would beg to differ.

Non sequitur. The results of gays being able to have a legally recognized union is not analogous to the dopes that chose to boycott Chick for the owner's commentary about gay marriage, legally recognized gay unions wouldn't alter my marriage nor anyone else's, and one could sit idly by on the sidelines while it happens and face zero impact.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Not a non sequitor. He's talking about Chicago, SF, and NYC essentially trying to prevent new CFAs from being built because of the owner's personal beliefs.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Not a non sequitor. He's talking about Chicago, SF, and NYC essentially trying to prevent new CFAs from being built because of the owner's personal beliefs.

Still a non-sequitor. Gay marriage being allowed doesn't force someone to speak out against it and possibly face idiots lashing out at them. I agree 100% that Chick should not be prevented from expanding their business because of the owner's commentary, but that is not relevant to the claim that gay marriage itself would impact those that don't agree with the policy.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

If this is where we are...the GOP got us here. The GOP has been pushing for PACs with shadowy doners that create the vehicles...and escalated the tone with character assassinations of Kerry.

c'mon! john kerry has no character to assassinate to begin with :p
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Yes, there is a great deal of substantial value to be delivered by government. The "true" debate is not over "whether" but over "appropriate proportions." Every time a person says "do we have too much?" or "what is the right balance for our times?", the response from the left is wailing and gnashing of teeth and accusations of "starve the children and deprive everyone of healthcare" when that was never proposed to begin with..

hmmm.
i have always thought, and clearly remember, one of the 2000 debates with dubya and gore helped define each side. it was where they had town hall type questions and a woman got up and asked each of them about taxes and how they stood. bush goes first and tells her if she makes $30k a year or whatever, she'd get to keep $2k.. whatever. very clear to understand. you get to keep more of what you earn. gore gets his turn and starts rambling how there would be an education tax credit for her to go back to school and help with education.... then some other dumass crap about tax credits for this, tax credits for that. change you home heating to this and you get a credit. blah blah blah..

made a very clear point on
1) one side lets you make decisions
2) one side figures they can trust you to take care of what you need
3) one side wants to push you into making decisions they want you to make
4) one side figures they can't trust you because you may not make the choices they want you to make.

so.... beyond this:

We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity,.....

what else does gov'ment really need to do for us?

(quick credit goes to saturday morning cartoons for the recollection exhibited above :p)
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I do not understand this. How is it "the gay agenda" to want to be treated equally? That should be everybody's agenda, shouldn't it? Did not southern whites in the 60's say they just wanted to be left alone from "the black agenda"?

I'm not being (well, deliberately) a jerk when I say I do not see the difference.

correct. nobody is making you be gay. you are being told that the services and benefits you get are available to others with no differentiation being made for whether you have a woman blow you or a man blow you. ice-t (whom i've quoted on this before) sums it up well - 'she wanna be lez, he wanna be gay? well that's your business i'm straight, so N* have it your own way".
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

So which is it when a religious organization that believes abortion is murder is required by law to offer abortifacient drugs to its employees?

if i had my rightful job in life (prince) i would decree this simply.

if you are a religious business, you are excluded. if you are a church, and you hire a secretary to answer phones in the rectory you can, by law, hire a religious person and tell them up front "i am not giving you abortion type drugs/dr appointments/etc via our health plan". however, this is limited to your religion business. if you choose to operate a school, that is no longer a religious entity [even though you may teach a religion class]. it is a school. if you operate a hospital, you are now in the hospital business inside those walls. not in the religion business. now you have to abide by my laws which mandate you offer equally to all that i tell you to.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

correct. nobody is making you be gay. you are being told that the services and benefits you get are available to others with no differentiation being made for whether you have a woman blow you or a man blow you. ice-t (whom i've quoted on this before) sums it up well - 'she wanna be lez, he wanna be gay? well that's your business i'm straight, so N* have it your own way".

Look, I don't particularly care. It's not a BFD to me. But there is simply no comparison between the black experience and the gay experience historically in America. And everybody knows it. No gays held as slaves. No gays sent to separate, inferior schools. No gays lynched. No gays denied the right to vote and the right to due process in the courts. No gays murdered for trying to improve their status. No gays discriminated against by labor unions for decades. No gays systematically denied employment and housing and access to credit. No gays discriminated against in public places, denied even the right to have a sandwich at a lunch counter.

Historically blacks were denied life, liberty AND the pursuit of happiness. Gays, on the other hand, have only had their rights to the pursuit of happiness infringed, and even there, not in ways comparable to what blacks faced.

It just seems to me the argument for whatever "rights" gays think they should have needs to stand on its own merits, without making specious comparisons to people who really were discriminated against, frequently at the end of a rope. There is simply no comparison. It's an obvious effort to sway public opinion. But it's intellectually dishonest.
 
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Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

So which is it when a religious organization that believes abortion is murder is required by law to offer abortifacient drugs to its employees?

open-ended question, no opinion stated.....

if i had my rightful job in life (prince) i would decree this simply.

if you are a religious business, you are excluded. if you are a church, and you hire a secretary to answer phones in the rectory you can, by law, hire a religious person and tell them up front "i am not giving you abortion type drugs/dr appointments/etc via our health plan". however, this is limited to your religion business. if you choose to operate a school, that is no longer a religious entity [even though you may teach a religion class]. it is a school. if you operate a hospital, you are now in the hospital business inside those walls. not in the religion business. now you have to abide by my laws which mandate you offer equally to all that i tell you to.

Great answer.

At the same time, we can also say, speaking hypothetically, that rather than condone such a practice, the religious employer terminates all employee health insurance coverage, increases their pre-tax pay by what they formerly had been paying in health insurance premiums, provides them professional guidance in finding alternative health insurance coverage. That's a logical outcome from your solution.

It is hard to find fault with your reasoning. It also is hard to like the outcome of your reasoning. This leaves us in a quandary.

Shall we proceed to make fun of each other at 20 paces? Hyperbole or distortion at dawn?

Hmm.... no thanks.

Some things are gnarly and take time....maybe sometimes there is more than one "right" answer, so that the "best" answer is the one at which people of "good willl" would compromise...a/k/a the "median".


Funny thing about the median, it cancels out extremes from both ends. :)
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Look, I don't particularly care....

it's like the bizarro "great" overusage! "he's a great player.." no, he's ok. [but i digress]

discrimination is the word of the day. plus it's one of those power words like racism that gets you noticed whether you yell it or speak softly. to a degree, if you are a gay dude and your pitcher is in the hospital -due to visitation and privacy laws, whatnot, you would not be allowed in. you also in certain states can not marry. there are tax implications too then, married filing jointly.. you know all this. to deny these peeps the same rights and benefits that breeders get is a form of discrimination.. not THE form of discrimination that you mention, but this is one instance where i'm ok in not setting the bar that high. :D
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

it's like the bizarro "great" overusage! "he's a great player.." no, he's ok. [but i digress]

discrimination is the word of the day. plus it's one of those power words like racism that gets you noticed whether you yell it or speak softly. to a degree, if you are a gay dude and your pitcher is in the hospital -due to visitation and privacy laws, whatnot, you would not be allowed in. you also in certain states can not marry. there are tax implications too then, married filing jointly.. you know all this. to deny these peeps the same rights and benefits that breeders get is a form of discrimination.. not THE form of discrimination that you mention, but this is one instance where i'm ok in not setting the bar that high. :D

All true, but not exactly Emmet Till, is it? Or Medgar Evers? Or Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman? Or the little girls in Birmingham? "Breeders?" Really? Can't you just make a point without being so G.D. offensive? Especially since I'm basically agreeing with you. My objection is to the false comparison. That's all. It's a great P.R. or political strategy, for sure. But that doesn't make it historically accurate or right.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Look, I don't particularly care. It's not a BFD to me. But there is simply no comparison between the black experience and the gay experience historically. And everybody knows it.
Sure....

No gays held as slaves.
Blacks can't be gay? (couldn't resist.)

No gays sent to separate, inferior schools.
No they get sent to pray away the gay camps.

No gays lynched. No gays denied the right to vote and the right to due process in the courts. No gays murdered for trying to improve their status.
It's sad that actually pointing out instances of this, you would just whine about how it's in no way related to them being gay. (Much like all that bull**** you were trying to shovel about the Matthew Shepherd murder)

No gays discriminated against by labor unions for decades.
I like that qualifier, "for decades"

No gays discriminated against in public places, denied even the right to have a sandwich at a lunch counter.
:rolleyes:


Historically blacks were denied life, liberty AND the pursuit of happiness. Gays, on the other hand, have only had their rights to the pursuit of happiness infringed, and even there, not in ways comparable to what blacks faced.
And by this logic, anytime someone is denied 1/3rd of their poorly defined rights then it's okay. Good to know.

It just seems to me the argument for whatever "rights" gays think they should have needs to stand on its own merits, without making specious comparisons to people who really were discriminated against, frequently at the end of a rope.
I'm guessing the black civil rights movement dominated much of your twilight years before you found a way to extend your ancient existence a few more centuries in order to bring further misery to the world, but blacks don't have exclusive domain over civil rights movements or being ill treated by the majority.
 
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