What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

This is me as well for the most part though I am in favor of massive military cuts since it is wasteful and we are broke. I do support universal health care only because the system as is is a piece of crap.

I guess you are a hardline lefty since apparently I am too :eek:

(further proof Bob has gone off the deep end)
Get off my deep end!
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

And those exclusions are being shrunken as we speak. To some of us it's more than just a political battle. I think you honestly believe you value freedom of religion. But, you don't see the conflict between pushing something like gay rights and maintaining religious freedom as I do, so forgive me if I'm more concerned than you are.
That's because I don't see it as gay rights. If a religion conflicts with human rights, then in some areas the religion cannot have it all their way.

I think we are about the same age, Bob, and I think as we pass from the scene succeeding generations just won't have a problem with this just as we don't have a problem with many things (gender equality, racial and ethnic equality) that would have enraged prior generations, including their religious leaders. For that matter America was founded on principles that just a hundred or so years earlier would have appeared to the vast majority as literal sacrilege.

To everything there is a season.

Believe me, as a Doubter I have a lot more riding on freedom of religion than anybody in the Believer supermajority. When the crap hits the fan it's always we who are rounded up first. (Well, we and the Jews.)
 
Last edited:
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Yup, if only those Christian Americans would keep what they think and say in church! It's not like they're fully American and have freedom of speech in the broad sense that non-Christian Americans should have. Just box 'em into those church buildings and keep 'em there and don't let 'em out. You don't realize how scary you sound at times. And you don't even realize it. You just say it more openly and honestly than some of the others around here.

Seriously, can you read? That isnt what he said or even implied. He was responding to geezers belief that the government will regulate what churches say. Why must you always kill the straw man what did he ever do to you...or was he the one that nailed you to that nifty cross you are on oh great Bob Martyr! :eek: ;)

edit: I support Freedom of Religion (and Speech) in all respects...I am not a Catholic. Huckabee is an idiot.
 
Last edited:
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

That's because I don't see it as gay rights. If a religion conflicts with human rights, then in some areas the religion cannot have it all their way.

I think we are about the same age, Bob, and I think as we pass from the scene succeeding generations just won't have a problem with this just as we don't have a problem with many things (gender equality, racial and ethnic equality) that would have enraged prior generations, including their religious leaders. For that matter America was founded on principles that just a hundred or so years earlier would have appeared to the vast majority as literal sacrilege.

To everything there is a season.

Believe me, as a Doubter I have a lot more riding on freedom of religion than anybody in the Believer supermajority. When the crap hits the fan it's always we who are rounded up first. (Well, we and the Jews.)
We see this fundamentally different. I don't see this as remotely a human rights issue. I think it's an insult to gender equity, civil rights, and human rights to be compared to this. The fact that this issue is trending your way is concerning to me short term. But, big picture mankind has always been trying to redefine things one way or another, with different generations doing it different ways. The Romans at times defined that it was ok to turn Christians into garden torches and food for lions. That passed and so shall this, sooner or later. Part of this comes down to whether you think there's an ultimate source and definition for things like good and evil, right and wrong, etc. Depending on where you land on that makes you look at this very different ways.

Being non-religious/doubter makes you much less of a target than if you stick to some sort of religious beliefs when the society you live in has turned a different direction that makes you choose between your beliefs and conforming to society's expectations/demands. History is rife with such situations, whereas folks who, so to speak, sit out the issue or aren't specifically identified with a side, are for the most part ok. There are exceptions, but they are that, exceptions.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Seriously, can you read? That isnt what he said or even implied. He was responding to geezers belief that the government will regulate what churches say. Why must you always kill the straw man what did he ever do to you...or was he the one that nailed you to that nifty cross you are on oh great Bob Martyr! :eek: ;)

edit: I support Freedom of Religion (and Speech) in all respects...I am not a Catholic. Huckabee is an idiot.
You're making even less sense than usual. I suggest you go back and read the discussion.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Bob Gray typifies the usual idiocy we see out of every GOP campaign, which always include references to:

1) Religion being under attack, specifically Christianity although they've made some strides with the Jewish Faith since the days of the Richard Nixon-Billy Graham Oval Office discussions. If you're neither one of those of course your religion is fair game...

2) Welfare queens are using your taxdollars to buy cigs/booze/nails/cable TV/etc

3) Blacks/illegal immigrants are taking your jobs

4) The rich need more tax cuts

That about sums it up since the Soviet Union went bell up over 20 years ago.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Bob Gray typifies the usual idiocy we see out of every GOP campaign, which always include references to:

1) Religion being under attack, specifically Christianity although they've made some strides with the Jewish Faith since the days of the Richard Nixon-Billy Graham Oval Office discussions. If you're neither one of those of course your religion is fair game...

2) Welfare queens are using your taxdollars to buy cigs/booze/nails/cable TV/etc

3) Blacks/illegal immigrants are taking your jobs

4) The rich need more tax cuts

That about sums it up since the Soviet Union went bell up over 20 years ago.
Your imagination is especially active today. Which takes some doing in your case.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Bob Gray typifies the usual idiocy we see out of every GOP campaign, which always include references to:

1) Religion being under attack, specifically Christianity although they've made some strides with the Jewish Faith since the days of the Richard Nixon-Billy Graham Oval Office discussions. If you're neither one of those of course your religion is fair game...

2) Welfare queens are using your taxdollars to buy cigs/booze/nails/cable TV/etc

3) Blacks/illegal immigrants are taking your jobs

4) The rich need more tax cuts

That about sums it up since the Soviet Union went bell up over 20 years ago.

:eek: wow, I haven't seen some of these since the 60's, and I wasn't even alive then! :D Put away the tinfoil hat and get out for a walk around town, Rover ol' buddy.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

:eek: wow, I haven't seen some of these since the 60's, and I wasn't even alive then! :D Put away the tinfoil hat and get out for a walk around town, Rover ol' buddy.
This is one of his lazy posts. When he puts in more effort, he can halfway make sense.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

This is me as well for the most part though I am in favor of massive military cuts since it is wasteful and we are broke. I do support universal health care only because the system as is is a piece of crap.

I guess you are a hardline lefty since apparently I am too :eek:

(further proof Bob has gone off the deep end)
Ah - should have clarified. I *am* in favor of a "strong" military, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think our military needs to be as strong as the next 14 combined. There is definitely room for cuts. (oops, channeling my inner hardline lefty again...).
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Ah - should have clarified. I *am* in favor of a "strong" military, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think our military needs to be as strong as the next 14 combined. There is definitely room for cuts. (oops, channeling my inner hardline lefty again...).
I agree with that. But, wait, I'm an off the deep end conservative, so how can I?
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

If you figure it out, let me know - I certainly can't.

On the "conservative" (common usage) side, I'm:
anti-union (especially public unions)
anti big government and high taxes
pro strong military
generally skeptical of social programs (especially those that are designed to mask the pain of a problem without solving it)
anti-universal health care (somebody has to do the rationing, and I distrust business less than government on this one)
pro-business but anti-bailout (let business owners keep the rewards for the risks they take and the hard work they do, and keep excessive regulation out of their way, but don't pour good taxpayer money after bad private investments)
anti affirmative action.

On the "liberal" side, I'm:
pro-choice
pro gun control (in cases where it actually aligns with common sense and has a prayer of actually doing some good)
pro civil rights (read: gay marriage)
pro financial regulation (let the government be the rules committee and referee but don't let them play the game or choose the winners)
pro marijuana (I've only ever seen one joint in my life and have no interest in drugs whatsoever, but live and let live)
pro using taxpayer funds to develop alternate energy as long as its something that's meaningful and sustainable (sorry, solar and wind).

Besides which, I don't see anything in my post #641 that advocates a liberal position. I perceive that post to be entirely factual - "lock step" is not a pejorative term; it's the reality of the situation. The guy I quoted is one of the arch-conservatives - if using his words is "parroting a liberal position" then I think the cats and dogs are finally living together.

This is similar to me as well. According to the tea-baggers we are RINOs. Sadly it seems like there used to be a lot more of us. And it seems as if this is quite a bit what Mitt was (until he started to try to appeal to the religious right part of the republican party).
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

"Oh, THAT Joe Soptic. Nevermind."

--Obama campaign, walking back its lies.
 
Last edited:
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I agree with that. But, wait, I'm an off the deep end conservative, so how can I?

No you are just off the deep end...it has nothing to do with you being a conservative! :D The two are not tied together because there are plenty of crazy lefties that are off the deep end too. (Rover would be a good example of this :D )

I guess I will see Lynah at my next Marxist Meeting...I hear this year it is in San Francisco so at least it is a destination worth going to ;) (for those of us in Flyover Country anyways)
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I really, really hate where our politics are today. The last page or so of this thread typifies the sad place we're in as a country. :(
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

My point being that I think it's coming here to the U.S. of A. (the control by the government of speech and thought)

Freedom of speech is as safe as it's ever been. In the last 3 SCOTUS terms, the court has shot down laws attempting to restrict anti-gay protests at military funerals, animal cruelty videos, violent video games, and lying about military honors. Not one of those cases was even close despite their subject matter.

If you're truly worried about freedom of speech being restricted in this country, you can honestly stop worrying. It's never been more protected.
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

If you figure it out, let me know - I certainly can't.

On the "conservative" (common usage) side, I'm:
anti-union (especially public unions)
anti big government and high taxes
pro strong military
generally skeptical of social programs (especially those that are designed to mask the pain of a problem without solving it)
anti-universal health care (somebody has to do the rationing, and I distrust business less than government on this one)
pro-business but anti-bailout (let business owners keep the rewards for the risks they take and the hard work they do, and keep excessive regulation out of their way, but don't pour good taxpayer money after bad private investments)
anti affirmative action.

On the "liberal" side, I'm:
pro-choice
pro gun control (in cases where it actually aligns with common sense and has a prayer of actually doing some good)
pro civil rights (read: gay marriage)
pro financial regulation (let the government be the rules committee and referee but don't let them play the game or choose the winners)
pro marijuana (I've only ever seen one joint in my life and have no interest in drugs whatsoever, but live and let live)
pro using taxpayer funds to develop alternate energy as long as its something that's meaningful and sustainable (sorry, solar and wind).

Besides which, I don't see anything in my post #641 that advocates a liberal position. I perceive that post to be entirely factual - "lock step" is not a pejorative term; it's the reality of the situation. The guy I quoted is one of the arch-conservatives - if using his words is "parroting a liberal position" then I think the cats and dogs are finally living together.

With one or two relatively minor quibbles, that's approximately where I am, too. Our liberal colleagues simply can't (or won't) distinguish as between fiscal and social when it comes to conservatives. Thus, anyone who claims to be a conservative must be pro-life, anti-gay, anti-evolution, etc. etc.

Your caveat that "gun control" measures must have some likihood of "working," (however we define that) is on point. Every time we have an Auora or Sikh temple or Columbine the gun control types dust off the proposals they always offer and offer them again. And they have no more liklihood of working the 5th or 10th time around. Although I've never owned a gun and most likely never will, I recognize anti-gun b*ll sh*t when I see it. And this nonsense about "assault weapons" is b*ll sh*t. These weapons are no more powerful or capable or dangerous than other semi-automatic weapons that fire the same ammunition, at the same rate, with the same impact. They just LOOK more lethal. And cosmetics shouldn't be our first concern.

You know, these gun control types remind me of folks who try to get convicts they believe have been wrongfully convicted off of death row. A worthwhile endeavor, to be sure, since nobody wants an innocent person put to death. But what these folks will hardly ever mention is they don't want ANYBODY executed, ever. And their efforts to get "innocent" guys off death row serve two purposes: to avoid miscarriages of justice and to help build their case for abolition. I think lots of gun control people are abolitionists, too. And they're working day and night to figure out a way to get around that pesky 2nd Amendment.

While I don't see gay marriage as a "civil right," that's not really my quibble. I just want to make certain we protect the rights of those who oppose gay marriage for religious reasons and to lay off the demonizing. Generally speaking, government should not be in the business of forcing people to abandon their religious beliefs. This can be tricky, of course. "God don't want me to serve no n-words" doesn't cut it. But forcing a military chaplain to perform a marriage which is against his principles doesn't either.

I've never held a joint in my hand, althugh as president of my fraternity, I had to fire my pledge trainer--he was dealing to my pledge class. Back in my day, there was a popular poster and expression: "9 out of 10 heroin addicts started out on pot." A classic example of confusing correlation with causation, because 10 out of 10 of those junkies started out on milk. So I don't lose any sleep over pot, since I assume tens of millions of Americans smoke it at least some of the time, including Michael Phelps.

You make a sound point on developing new sources of energy. Feel good, touchy feely "solutions" to the problem have no chance of succeeding. Besides, anyone talking about energy independence who refuses to discuss nuclear is unserious. This business is usually presented as "either/or." Either we continue as we have been or we find new sources of energy. How about both? With the oil boom in Canada and the United States we're looking at a new golden age, with independence from OPEC. And projects like the Keystone Pipeline and drilling in ANWAR must go forward. We cannot afford to have our energy policy held hostage by a tiny clique of so-called environmentalists. We just can't afford it. But that shouldn't stop us from exploring new, economicaly sensible sources of energy too.
 
Last edited:
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

I object to your extension "those of us who value freedom of religion." I value that freedom and I think what Huckabee said was silly and incorrect.

There are religious exclusions to some laws but not all. That's a political battle.

There are religious exclusions to all anti-discrimination laws that I've seen. However, they generally only apply to bona fide religious positions (so your priest counts, but your janitor probably doesn't).
 
Re: Elections 2012 -- Carrion My Wayward Son!

Freedom of speech is as safe as it's ever been. In the last 3 SCOTUS terms, the court has shot down laws attempting to restrict anti-gay protests at military funerals, animal cruelty videos, violent video games, and lying about military honors. Not one of those cases was even close despite their subject matter.

If you're truly worried about freedom of speech being restricted in this country, you can honestly stop worrying. It's never been more protected.

Correct. If we're going to err we should err on the side of freedom of speech. SCOTUS is one thing. The efforts of many of us to find reasons to shut people up with whom we disagree is another. Remember the flap over the movie "Last Temptation of Christ?" Some said it was blasphemous. And they weren't merely satisfied with expressing their concerns in the usual ways, they also wanted the film pulled from theatres and banned from distribution. Well, thanks folks, but I can decide what films to see myself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top