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Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

FlagDUDE08 said:
In Mississippi, though, perhaps Tokyo unmodified refers to Tokyo MS. You've just trained yourself to think that Tokyo means Japan. When I hear Amsterdam, I think Amsterdam NY.
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Nope. Sorry. Paris, standing alone, refers to the city in France, even if you're reporting from Texas. Besides, the context of the reference would make it clear which country you're talking about. "Chefs from around the world gathered in Paris in the biggest gourmet cooking competition ever." Context would generally give you a clue. "State police have set up a DWI roadblock outside of Amsterdam."

Any unmodified reference to one of the great cities refers to that city. It's only when you're talking about Amsterdam, New York, that it's necessary to add the modifier. Even people in NY (with one possible exception) understand this.
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Proud2baLaker said:
On a similar note when I hear Cairo I think Cairo, IL (about 1-1.5 hours due south of me right now). In Indiana there are towns called Peru, Brazil and Mexico. Brazil was farther away and Mexico was small, but if someone told me they were going to Peru, I thought of the town and not the country, since it was again about an hour or so away.
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Although the locals pronounce it "Kay ro," so there's very little chance anyone would be confused. If you're referring to the city in Egypt, Cairo is all that's needed. If you're referring to a town in southern Illinois, it may be necessary to add the state, especially because of out of towners. If you're reporting from Chicago, then you might say: "down in Cairo, Maude Frickert has just been elected mayor."

Locally, a story about "Peru reaching the semi-finals in the state basketball tournament" probably wouldn't require any modification. Outside of Indiana, however, such a story might require something like "A town named Peru in central Indiana has reached the semi-finals . . ."

Trust me on this one. Saying Paris, France; Rome, Italy; Moscow, Russia, etc. is redundant and almost never required. And if you felt obliged to add the name of the country for whatever reason, then you would need to be a little more creative about it.
 
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Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Old Pio said:
Nope. Sorry. Paris, standing alone, refers to the city in France, even if you're reporting from Texas. Besides, the context of the reference would make it clear which country you're talking about. "Chefs from around the world gathered in Paris in the biggest gourmet cooking competition ever." Context would generally give you a clue. "State police have set up a DWI roadblock outside of Amsterdam."

Any unmodified reference to one of the great cities refers to that city. It's only when you're talking about Amsterdam, New York, that it's necessary to add the modifier. Even people in NY (with one possible exception) understand this.
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Nope. Sorry. When I hear Paris, I think Paris NY. Heck, when you said Texas, I thought Texas NY.
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

FlagDUDE08 said:
Nope. Sorry. When I hear Paris, I think Paris NY. Heck, when you said Texas, I thought Texas NY.
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As I said, with one possible exception. The usage standards are not designed for your approval. It must be terribly confusing for you to watch the news, with all of those sh*tball New York towns clanking around in your head. :p
 
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Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Old Pio said:
As I said, with one possible exception. The usage standards are not designed for your approval. It must be terribly confusing for you to watch the news, with all of those sh*tball New York towns clanking around in your head. :p
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Those newscasters got off my lawn a long time ago. :D
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Old Pio said:
Although the locals pronounce it "Kay ro," so there's very little chance anyone would be confused. If you're referring to the city in Egypt, Cairo is all that's needed. If you're referring to a town in southern Illinois, it may be necessary to add the state, especially because of out of towners. If you're reporting from Chicago, then you might say: "down in Cairo, Maude Frickert has just been elected mayor."

Locally, a story about "Peru reaching the semi-finals in the state basketball tournament" probably wouldn't require any modification. Outside of Indiana, however, such a story might require something like "A town named Peru in central Indiana has reached the semi-finals . . ."

Trust me on this one. Saying Paris, France; Rome, Italy; Moscow, Russia, etc. is redundant and almost never required. And if you felt obliged to add the name of the country for whatever reason, then you would be a little more creative about it.
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My pet peeve with US news outlets it's when they refer to Canadian cities as for example "Toronto, Canada". That would be the equivalent of a CTV announcer saying "Chicago, USA".
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Lets compromise and agree that most of the time, you dont need to specify the country when refering to cities like Paris, Tokyo, Moscow, etc. However, depending on where you are and the context of the situation there are times you may need to specify the country. Those times may not be common but they do exist.
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

SteveP said:
My pet peeve with US news outlets it's when they refer to Canadian cities as for example "Toronto, Canada". That would be the equivalent of a CTV announcer saying "Chicago, USA".
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Same principle. Unlike the J. Geils Band song, Canada is not "old 51."
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Proud2baLaker said:
Lets compromise and agree that most of the time, you dont need to specify the country when refering to cities like Paris, Tokyo, Moscow, etc. However, depending on where you are and the context of the situation there are times you may need to specify the country. Those times may not be common but they do exist.
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As we've seen, there are people in New York state who are so chauvanistic that when they hear a story about the G-8 meeting in Tokyo, they're worried about all the extra traffic on the thruway. Seriously, I'd like an example, if you don't mind. I simply disagree that there's ever a time where it's "necessary" to distinguish between Paris and Paris, Texas. Generally people who live in or near podunk towns that share a name with a great city instinctively know what's being referred to. Anyone for whom such a distinction is "necessary" has far larger problems to contend with.

The principle remains: the names of great cities do not require modifiers.
 
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Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Old Pio said:
As we've seen, there are people in New York state who are so chauvanistic that when they hear a story about the G-8 meeting in Tokyo, they're worried about all the extra traffic on the thruway. Seriously, I'd like an example, if you don't mind. I simply disagree that there's ever a time where it's "necessary" to distinguish between Paris and Paris, Texas. Generally people who live in or near podunk towns that share a name with a great city instinctively know what's being referred to. Anyone for whom such a distinction is "necessary" has far larger problems to contend with.

The principle remains: the names of great cities do not require modifiers.
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Since the towns I am more familiar with are named after countries this may not apply as much but, lets say that town of Peru in Indiana was called Paris. If someone told me they were going to Paris next week my first thought would be that they were going to Paris, IN. I would continue to assume that until they either said something like...Im not looking forward to the flight, I cant wait to see the Eiffel Tower, etc or they flat out said Paris, France. Yes most times simply saying Paris will work but without proper context there are times when you may not know which Paris they are refering to. Similar with FlagDude depending on the situation the modifier may be neccesssary. Those times are rare but they do exist.
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Proud2baLaker said:
Since the towns I am more familiar with are named after countries this may not apply as much but, lets say that town of Peru in Indiana was called Paris. If someone told me they were going to Paris next week my first thought would be that they were going to Paris, IN. I would continue to assume that until they either said something like...Im not looking forward to the flight, I cant wait to see the Eiffel Tower, etc or they flat out said Paris, France. Yes most times simply saying Paris will work but without proper context there are times when you may not know which Paris they are refering to. Similar with FlagDude depending on the situation the modifier may be neccesssary. Those times are rare but they do exist.
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Well, apart from the fact that your friend would probably have a significantly greater degree of enthusiasm for a sudden, unexpected trip to France than to the hog capital of Indiana (which you would undoubtedly pick up on) the idea that he would have to say "I'm going to Paris, France" to keep you from being confused strikes me as a bit of a leap. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but you can't set up standards for proper usage by taking dullards into consideration. "I before E except after C (with the exceptions)" is the rule. If there are people who can't grasp it, then they can go through life getting the spelling wrong.

When I say the principle that great cities require no modifiers, I am referring to professional writing, mostly in news, not interpersonal communications. That may be the heart of our disagreement. Individuals can talk to one another any way they chose, but professional writers have standards they have to meet. But, as I said, even there it is really stretching things to assert it's "necessary" to add "France" to "Paris" so dumbells (again, not talking about you) won't be confused. I saw "Torah, Torah, Torah" over the weekend. At one point somebody tells General Short the men are confused about all the alerts. General Short says: "Well, unconfuse 'em." :)
 
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Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

Proud2baLaker said:
On a similar note when I hear Cairo I think Cairo, IL
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I only know of one city on the world called [care-oh] and that's Cairo, IL. So yeah. But when someone says [Chi-Rho] you know they mean Cairo, Egypt. :)

Edit: OP beat me to it.
 
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Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

duper said:
I only know of one city on the world called [care-oh] and that's Cairo, IL. So yeah. But when someone says [Chi-Rho] you know they mean Cairo, Egypt. :)

Edit: OP beat me to it.
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"Even a blind hog. . ."
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

There are some people I'd like to ask, "are you ignorant? or just apathetic?"

Except I already know their answer:

"I don't know, and I don't care."
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

A question for those more electrically inclined... is (AC / DC) Current redundant? I know that AC / DC stands for Alternating / Direct Current, but AC/DC can also be used to say AC Voltage, so it should be necessary to include Current in the original example, right?
 
Re: Deparatment of Redundancy Department

burgie12 said:
A question for those more electrically inclined... is (AC / DC) Current redundant? I know that AC / DC stands for Alternating / Direct Current, but AC/DC can also be used to say AC Voltage, so it should be necessary to include Current in the original example, right?
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The "C" does stand for current, so AC Current is definitely redundant. AC Voltage is nonsense, technically, but it's obvious that the meaning is "we're applying a voltage as appropriate for inducing an alternating current." More commonly, you'll see things like 110VAC or 12 VDC, which are pretty nonsensical as well - what is a volt of alternating current? 110VAC is really just "alternating voltage," so it should just be 110 AV - but nobody uses that, ever.
 
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