Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Can we all agree that Kaine is winning the race for worst party chair?

We are at one of those Great Moments in history when both party chairs and both Senate party leaders are bozos. Pelosi's a good majority leader and Boner's a good minority leader, but if the House flips they're each ill-suited for those new roles. The Chief Justice and the Veep are dips, the Fed Chair's a frontman for a bunch of white collar crooks, the Secretary of State's a sociopath, and 90% of the first tier of opposition Presidential candidates would be Peter Principled as state leg back benchers.

Remind me again why universal suffrage was a good idea.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

"A wayward schoolchild arriving without his homework, only to find his teacher has been in a terrible accident." Perfect analogy.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Pelosi is a good House leader? How does one gauge being a good house leader? She certainly rules with an iron fist, unlike anyone else in recent memory. But such does not a great leader make. Putting the words "leader" and "Pelosi" in the same sentence is hard to do, let alone believe.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Pelosi is a good House leader? How does one gauge being a good house leader? She certainly rules with an iron fist, unlike anyone else in recent memory. But such does not a great leader make. Putting the words "leader" and "Pelosi" in the same sentence is hard to do, let alone believe.

I've said it before, while Pelosi's positions are ridiculous, and I find her repugnant, she's a pretty **** good House leader.

 

[Rover]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Exactly. People get too caught up in a House leader's approval ratings. In fact its a highly partisan position that's never going to be popular with the general electorate. The mark of a successful Speaker is if they got things passed. Pelosi has passed every priority of the Obama administration, so by that mark she's done her job. Reid on the other hand has been a failure, much like Daschle before him. The only thing saving his behind with the Dem caucus is that he's had 59-60 Dem votes throughout this Congress, thus making it easy to pick off an occasional Republican who's either retiring or represents a liberal state and has one eye towards re-election.

Win lose or draw this November, Reid has to go as Majority Leader. If he has trouble passing legislation with 59 votes, how will he if he needs 5 to 7 votes instead?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

I've said it before, while Pelosi's positions are ridiculous, and I find her repugnant, she's a pretty **** good House leader.

Again, depends on how you define someone being a good leader. Is a good leader someone who can get the most accomplished for their agenda, regardless of how they do it or whether it's good for the nation? Or does it hark back to the great statesmen in U.S. history who accomplished notable things, but were viewed as great not just by their supporters, but more broadly speaking? I'd say Pelosi falls into the first category to some extent, but I doubt in 50 years anyone will look back and consider her one of the historic greats of Congress.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Even from a historical perspective, I doubt you can escape the influence of partisanship.

Luckily, the solution is simple. Replace 'good leader' with 'effective leader'.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Even from a historical perspective, I doubt you can escape the influence of partisanship.

Luckily, the solution is simple. Replace 'good leader' with 'effective leader'.

I'd ask the same question. How do you measure effectiveness? By advancing the party platform regardless of cost? By being the statesman as previously discussed? I think Pelosi has been very effective in the first sense, but not very effective in the second sense.

 

[Bill]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Anyone (either party) who makes a statement like "We have to pass the bill so we can see what's in it" doesn't belong in Congress, period. That statement says boatloads about what's wrong with our modern Congress.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

I've said it before, while Pelosi's positions are ridiculous, and I find her repugnant, she's a pretty **** good House leader.

Right, that's what I was getting at. Dems have seemingly always been harder to organize, and she manages it.

I disliked Reagan's policies intensely. That he got them enacted didn't make me hold him in any higher esteem (quite the opposite), but it did make him a good president.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Win lose or draw this November, Reid has to go as Majority Leader. If he has trouble passing legislation with 59 votes, how will he if he needs 5 to 7 votes instead?

Even if Reid wins, he's looking at a majority of 52-48 or 53-47, with all the Republicans plus Droopy having to vote lockstep in terror of the TP. That means the Dems won't get anything passed that the GOP doesn't want passed -- essentially, rule by the minority party -- and the GOP has its cake and eats it because anything they know needs doing but want to play games with during the election cycle they can let through cloture and then vote straight against. Irresponsibility without consequences, the epitome of Republican governance. This is why losing the DE and NV nominations might have been the best thing that happened to them since Jeb counted the votes in FL.

He's such a wuss that part of me wants Reid to stay SML just to see him turn on the spit, but it's not worth the damage to the country.

 

[Rover]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Even if Reid wins, he's looking at a majority of 52-48 or 53-47, with all the Republicans plus Droopy having to vote lockstep in terror of the TP. That means the Dems won't get anything passed that the GOP doesn't want passed -- essentially, rule by the minority party -- and the GOP has its cake and eats it because anything they know needs doing but want to play games with during the election cycle they can let through cloture and then vote straight against. Irresponsibility without consequences, the epitome of Republican governance. This is why losing the DE and NV nominations might have been the best thing that happened to them since Jeb counted the votes in FL.

He's such a wuss that part of me wants Reid to stay SML just to see him turn on the spit, but it's not worth the damage to the country.

That works to a point, but the problem the GOP will have, be it with any gains is that the people they elected (Paul, Miller, etc etc) are going to be expected to push issues near and dear to their hearts...or they'll primary the next round of incumbents in 2012. What happens when the GOP refuses to take up an investigation into Obama's Kenyan birth certificate? Or when the deficit keeps going up because they wanted to borrow money to pass top level tax cuts? How about abolishing the Fed?

The crux of GOP/Tea Party gains this year is the hope that Dem voters sit out the election. That's all well and fine, but they won't continue to sit out elections. Most likely they'll return in 2012 as voter turnout is always much higher in Presidential years. That means while ideologically pure Senators can push their agenda, it'll be their colleagues who get to answer for it who are up facing a much wider electorate. I don't get the sense Teabaggers are going to settle for do nothing once they have a few of their people in.

 

[joecct]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Even from a historical perspective, I doubt you can escape the influence of partisanship.

Luckily, the solution is simple. Replace 'good leader' with 'effective leader'.

What about "Dear Leader"??

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

That works to a point, but the problem the GOP will have, be it with any gains is that the people they elected (Paul, Miller, etc etc) are going to be expected to push issues near and dear to their hearts...or they'll primary the next round of incumbents in 2012. What happens when the GOP refuses to take up an investigation into Obama's Kenyan birth certificate? Or when the deficit keeps going up because they wanted to borrow money to pass top level tax cuts? How about abolishing the Fed?

The crux of GOP/Tea Party gains this year is the hope that Dem voters sit out the election. That's all well and fine, but they won't continue to sit out elections. Most likely they'll return in 2012 as voter turnout is always much higher in Presidential years. That means while ideologically pure Senators can push their agenda, it'll be their colleagues who get to answer for it who are up facing a much wider electorate. I don't get the sense Teabaggers are going to settle for do nothing once they have a few of their people in.

TP is doing something very healthy, co-opting that indigestible mass characterized by

an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship,… and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery

Those folks need somewhere to go, and far better they should latch on to "fiscal conservatism" as their casus belli du jour than burning crosses or dragging gays behind pickups.

No, they aren't going to get anything specific they want, since the specifics they want make no sense, but if they force the Republicans towards a more Libertarian mindset, they'll have been a force for good despite themselves.

The GOP was terrified of the Christian Taliban for 25 years and that made them at least affect to be monsters. If they're scared of Heinlein fans, maybe they won't be quite so destructive to American ideals (though hopefully they're a little lighter on fantasizing about their mothers).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Christian Taliban?
Burning crosses?
Dragging gays behind pickups?

That the sort of overhyped rhetoric I'd expect from a troll like Rover, not you Kepler.

 

[Rover]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Christian Taliban?
Burning crosses?
Dragging gays behind pickups?

That the sort of overhyped rhetoric I'd expect from a troll like Rover, not you Kepler.

Oh stop your whining you big baby. Between you and Red Cloud I'm going to start investing in all companies that manufacture tissues and diapers. (or Depends in your case)

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Oh stop your whining you big baby. Between you and Red Cloud I'm going to start investing in all companies that manufacture tissues and diapers. (or Depends in your case)

You invest? I figured you'd just support a state takeover and then get a cushy job as a crony. Isn't that how your type operates?

 

[Rover]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

You invest? I figured you'd just support a state takeover and then get a cushy job as a crony. Isn't that how your type operates?

Nothing wrong with a little graft here and there. That's what gets things done.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Nothing wrong with a little graft here and there. That's what gets things done.

Ah, that explains a lot.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

I'd ask the same question. How do you measure effectiveness? By advancing the party platform regardless of cost? By being the statesman as previously discussed? I think Pelosi has been very effective in the first sense, but not very effective in the second sense.

Yes, to the first part. Not everything has to be contaminated by ideology. It's possible to look at the extent to which congressional leaders "matter." Using that approach lets you do interesting things like comparing leadership styles, to try to figure out general relationships between leadership style and level of influence, across various positions (Senate subcommittee chair, House Speaker, etc). It's not my thing, personally, but it's a serious topic of research for lots of folks.