Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

[XYZ]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Thats fine...dictators have choices. Gorbachev had a choice to forceably keep the Baltics in the Soviet Union. Not only did he not do that...but he outlined the process within their constitution by which they could leave.

True, but the question is...did he really have a choice at that point?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

And here I thought Gorbachev was a grubby communist apparatchik sticking his fingers in the dyke to preserve a dying status quo. Turns out he was Thomas Jefferson reincarnate. How could I have been so wrong?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Could you even pretend to be polite and also try to hide your paranoia a little?

Thanks.

I have to assume you're talking to 5mn here, since Rover's really the only other paranoid schizophrenic around and he hasn't posted here in a while.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Thats fine...dictators have choices. Gorbachev had a choice to forceably keep the Baltics in the Soviet Union. Not only did he not do that...but he outlined the process within their constitution by which they could leave.

It was the "dictators have to want to change" statement that concerned me. The fact that Gorbachev wanted change was important, but the changes he helped bring about weren't exactly the ones he had in mind at the outset.

I give him credit for being an important, historic figure, but he wasn't a mastermind. No matter. I'm certainly not sorry that he failed.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

It was the "dictators have to want to change" statement that concerned me. The fact that Gorbachev wanted change was important, but the changes he helped bring about weren't exactly the ones he had in mind at the outset.

I give him credit for being an important, historic figure, but he wasn't a mastermind. No matter. I'm certainly not sorry that he failed.

It shouldn't concern you. Find any extensive list of dictators on the net...how many were pressured extensively by the international community? I think you'll find nearly all. And of those, how many just stepped down without an invasion or overthrow? I think you'll find very few. Gorbachev had a choice...as all dictators do...and he chose to take a very rare path for a dictator and step down on his own.

I don't think things came out exactly as he expected either. But if you look the vast array of reforms he took...you can't help but think that one of his top goals was to improve the lives of his people. And whether he expected it to happen immediately or further in the future...he was ultimately successful in that.

True, but the question is...did he really have a choice at that point?

Many of the reforms were way above and beyond what would have been necessary by external threat alone.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

So, if history looks back and thanks Reagan and Bush for spending the Soviets out of existance, will it also look at the inevitable collapse of the United States and curse Reagan and the family of his Vice President for spending us into the ground?

In the long run, it looks more like both us and the Soviets were overeating, and their heart gave out first, but we're still going to die, because we can't put the goddamm twinkie down.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

So, if history looks back and thanks Reagan and Bush for spending the Soviets out of existance, will it also look at the inevitable collapse of the United States and curse Reagan and the family of his Vice President for spending us into the ground?

In the long run, it looks more like both us and the Soviets were overeating, and their heart gave out first, but we're still going to die, because we can't put the goddamm twinkie down.

Well, there was supposed to be a peace dividend.

The problem was that the world refused to behave, and the post-Cold War era got messy fast. I was alive for enough of the Cold War not to think of it as some golden era in history. But in a way, it really was beautiful in its simplicity. We're playing chess on a 3D board these days, rather than Cold War checkers.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Well, there was supposed to be a peace dividend.

The problem was that the world refused to behave, and the post-Cold War era got messy fast. I was alive for enough of the Cold War not to think of it as some golden era in history. But in a way, it really was beautiful in its simplicity. We're playing chess on a 3D board these days, rather than Cold War checkers.

Yeah. Chess where we have more pieces than the rest of the world combined, and 980 places outside our borders to put them.

We had to try to build Star Wars to kill the Soviets. All Bin Laden had to do was crash some planes. Talk about asymmetrical conflict.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Many of the reforms were way above and beyond what would have been necessary by external threat alone.

What about internal threat, though?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Well, there was supposed to be a peace dividend.

The problem was that the world refused to behave, and the post-Cold War era got messy fast. I was alive for enough of the Cold War not to think of it as some golden era in history. But in a way, it really was beautiful in its simplicity. We're playing chess on a 3D board these days, rather than Cold War checkers.

There's no reason the post cold war era should have been that messy. This is one you can pin on Clinton/Gingrich...we should have put in cuts.

What about internal threat, though?

Interesting. I don't know though that there were any cracks in Gorby's control.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

So, if history looks back and thanks Reagan and Bush for spending the Soviets out of existance, will it also look at the inevitable collapse of the United States and curse Reagan and the family of his Vice President for spending us into the ground?

Our debt has ballooned to nearly 100% of our GDP, and 2/3 of it has been tacked on since Clinton left office nine years ago. Given the sea of red extending into our future under Obama, I think I can safely say that the bulk of the blame should be shared between him, W, and their incompetent Congresses.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

@5Mn: Tell that to Congress. The President doesn't control appropriations. All defense spending benefits some district. Meaningful cutbacks are hard as hell.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Interesting. I don't know though that there were any cracks in Gorby's control.

Wasn't thinking along those lines. Moreso that a combination of internal and external threats, in a very general sense of the word "threat", along with numerous other mitigating factors ultimately stacked a few too many bushels of straws on that camel's back. The buckling was going to happen anyway. Gorbachev might have not done anything to stop it which is more than can be said for his predecessors, but the mere fact he stepped into the 70's and had it go down on his watch probably doesn't make him laudable in terms of being an active responsible party.

Edit: I should probably address the internal aspect a bit more directly. While not being the only factor by any stretch (which I think I've made clear), the way that Soviet society was being governed was not going to continue in perpetuity. In societal terms I'll even cut slack and concede it happened subconsciously, but when wondering why the Motherland fell, looking solely to external factors is a grave mistake. There were pressures from all sides.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

And a NY Times op-ed from a Vietnam-ERA vet about Mr. Blumenthal's prevarications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/nyregion/21nyc.html?hp


And a shot from USA Today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2010-05-20-editorial20_ST1_N.htm

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Give Reagan the save on the cold war. He was the closer and should get credit. Whether or not Ollie Perez could have done the same thing in his position, the fact is he was the guy with the ball. The whole country is the ball club and gets the win -- we all worked for it, for generations. Saying only one side gets credit tells you everything you need to know about the person making the claim -- they are "that guy."

Gorbachev managed to let the Empire collapse without bloodshed. That's another amazing achievement and a much more direct and personal one since to the best of my knowledge virtually nobody except Yeltsin gave him any help, but that was a different ballgame.

Empires do die, historically, the way the Soviets' did -- overreach followed by exhaustion. But the Soviets had the power to take the world with them, and did not. That was the single most important event since WW2. Whoever helped that transition is owed thanks for saving x hundred million lives -- I don't care if they were communist, neoconservative, or Presbyterian.

 

[Rover]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Moving on, as Reagan isn't on the ballot this year (and frankly wouldn't make it out of the GOP primaries if he was ), looks like Rand Paul is now sticking up for BP:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/...+wsj/washwire/feed+(WSJ.com:+Washington+Wire)

You know, I appreciate the guy's ability to say what he feels, but I'm not sure this is the kind of company he wants to be saddling up with right now.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Just remember everyone. Rand Paul is a mainstream conservative. Just like the rest of the Tea Party.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Moving on, as Reagan isn't on the ballot this year (and frankly wouldn't make it out of the GOP primaries if he was ), looks like Rand Paul is now sticking up for BP:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/...+wsj/washwire/feed+(WSJ.com:+Washington+Wire)

You know, I appreciate the guy's ability to say what he feels, but I'm not sure this is the kind of company he wants to be saddling up with right now.

Imagine though if it leads to an honest debate without the usual hand-waving.

The thing is, I don't think mutual honesty would change the results of elections very much. It would just makes us all feel a lot less unclean about our elected officials and even about ourselves and our votes. Imagine a debate where the conservative said "my pro-business stance should result in a 10% increase in pollution and on-the-job injuries, but it's worth it because the economy will be increased 15%," and the liberal said "my education plan will line the pockets of bureaucratic administrators who contribute nothing to educating our children and give pay raises to teachers regardless of merit thus rewarding the lazy as well as the good, but it's worth it because it will dramatically improve the overall quality of education." The voters would probably still pull the handle (kids: ask grandpa) for the same guy but walk out feeling like they faced the issues squarely and made tough decisions knowing the downside, just like we all do every day in real life.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Moving on, as Reagan isn't on the ballot this year (and frankly wouldn't make it out of the GOP primaries if he was ), looks like Rand Paul is now sticking up for BP:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/...+wsj/washwire/feed+(WSJ.com:+Washington+Wire)

You know, I appreciate the guy's ability to say what he feels, but I'm not sure this is the kind of company he wants to be saddling up with right now.

Did he stick up for BP? Really? He said the President, who just last week complained about finger pointing, should stop finger pointing.

Although I agree that he should probably take a week off from TV, just to get his talking points together.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries

Did he stick up for BP? Really? He said the President, who just last week complained about finger pointing, should stop finger pointing.

Although I agree that he should probably take a week off from TV, just to get his talking points together.

So, it's finger pointing when the person or group on the other end of the finger is responsible?

See, that's the fun thing about whining about finger pointing. No one is culpable.