Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
So ending the cold war doesn't make your list of "positive things?" Tough curve.
So ending the cold war doesn't make your list of "positive things?" Tough curve.
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Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
- Thread starter joecct
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P
Priceless
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Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
The GOP ended the cold war? Wow.
So ending the cold war doesn't make your list of "positive things?" Tough curve.
The GOP ended the cold war? Wow.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Evidently you were out of the room. More specifically, that old Grade B actor Ronald Reagan pulled it off. I believe history will give him high marks here for confronting the "evil empire," a phrase which caused lefties from coast to coast the vapors.
Evidently you were out of the room. More specifically, that old Grade B actor Ronald Reagan pulled it off. I believe history will give him high marks here for confronting the "evil empire," a phrase which caused lefties from coast to coast the vapors.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Our current (and GWB's former) SecDef thinks Carter should get as much credit as Reagan.
Our current (and GWB's former) SecDef thinks Carter should get as much credit as Reagan.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Many people think it would have happened regardless of what the US did or didn't do.
Many people think it would have happened regardless of what the US did or didn't do.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
A good case can be made.
Pio's post made me think back to Gates's memoirs. He tells some funny anecdotes about how freaked-out the Soviets were re: Jimmy Carter. They had no idea what to make of him, so they made him fit into a Dr. Evil-style arch-villain. They read his human rights shtick as a deliberate attempt to foment unrest in Communist bloc countries. They didn't think the guy actually believed what he was saying - they thought it was calculated rhetoric designed to bring down their rule from the inside. Getting the MX missile back on track after it was stalled in the Ford administration contributed to the impression that Carter was Darth Vader in a light blue cardigan.
This is all Gates's material, not mine. I had no Soviet-era contacts in the USSR. I was too busy watching cartoons and playing Atari.
This much, I believe: Ideological certitude + groupthink = bad policy.
A good case can be made.
Pio's post made me think back to Gates's memoirs. He tells some funny anecdotes about how freaked-out the Soviets were re: Jimmy Carter. They had no idea what to make of him, so they made him fit into a Dr. Evil-style arch-villain. They read his human rights shtick as a deliberate attempt to foment unrest in Communist bloc countries. They didn't think the guy actually believed what he was saying - they thought it was calculated rhetoric designed to bring down their rule from the inside. Getting the MX missile back on track after it was stalled in the Ford administration contributed to the impression that Carter was Darth Vader in a light blue cardigan.
This is all Gates's material, not mine. I had no Soviet-era contacts in the USSR. I was too busy watching cartoons and playing Atari.
This much, I believe: Ideological certitude + groupthink = bad policy.
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Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
You may have thought the 40-year full court press the US military and intelligence community put on the Soviets won the Cold War. But it turns out it was flag-burning amendments.
BTW, my Dad is a Dem who worked his entire life in those communities keeping the bear at bay. So, essentially, ef you.
You may have thought the 40-year full court press the US military and intelligence community put on the Soviets won the Cold War. But it turns out it was flag-burning amendments.
BTW, my Dad is a Dem who worked his entire life in those communities keeping the bear at bay. So, essentially, ef you.
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P
Priceless
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Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
I had no idea that the entire Communist Bloc was brought down by one man. Wow. That's amazing! An actor, you say? Like Rambo on steroids? Well...better steroids?
I had no idea that the entire Communist Bloc was brought down by one man. Wow. That's amazing! An actor, you say? Like Rambo on steroids? Well...better steroids?
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
To quote Jonah Goldberg: "a geyser of asshattery."
To quote Jonah Goldberg: "a geyser of asshattery."
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Clearly your father's valuable service to our country gives you a pass for every ignorant opinion you express. ef you right back, boy scout.
Clearly your father's valuable service to our country gives you a pass for every ignorant opinion you express. ef you right back, boy scout.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
To quote Biff: "it takes one to know one."
To quote Biff: "it takes one to know one."
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Make like a tree and get outta here!
Make like a tree and get outta here!
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
am too, am not, am too, am not. When you quote Pee Wee Herman you really ought to give attribution.
am too, am not, am too, am not. When you quote Pee Wee Herman you really ought to give attribution.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
To quote Mike Tyson, we outspent them into Bolivian.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
Exactly. And major kudos for the Tyson "quote," a guy who doesn't get his props around here, you ask me.
Exactly. And major kudos for the Tyson "quote," a guy who doesn't get his props around here, you ask me.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
We give credit to presidents who establish goals and set policies that wind up benefiting the country. We give credit to Jack Kennedy for getting us to the moon, even though he had been in his grave for six years before Neil Armstrong took his "one small step for a man."
But the president had set the goal of landing a man on the moon "in this decade," and we did it. Subsequent presidents of both parties bought into the goal. Congress after congress appropriated the money to make it happen. And tens of thousands of skilled Americans (and some from Germany) worked like mules to bring Mercury, Gemini and finally Apollo to fruition. But President Kennedy in my view is correctly given the credit for setting that all into motion.
Similarly, Ronald Reagan set out to confront and defeat the Soviet Union.
He did so over keening criticism from the left that he was a dangerous war monger, a fool, and too stupid to understand what he was doing. He faced a sclerotic leadership in the Soviet Union--three general secretaries dropped dead on his watch.
But he persisted--with the Strategic Defense Initiative, 600 ship navy, Peacekeeper missiles, short range missiles in Europe and other defense policies which rendered the Soviet Union unable to maintain the level of spending required to keep up. Ironically, the biggest believers in the ability of the United States to create a workable missile defense were in the Kremlin (and still are). And the anti-SDI types in America who said "well, all the Soviets have to do is increase the boost phase of their ICBMs to defeat it" missed the point that doing so would cost them hundreds of billions of dollars, which they didn't have.
Reagan once made a joke during a mic check about the missiles are on their way, and the left had a conniption fit. The left didn't like Reagan (which is totally understandable from their perspective) and they really didn't like Reagan confronting the "evil empire" and showing a willingness to back up his policies with force. But at the end of the day the Soviet Union imploded (for lots of reasons) but it was Ronald Reagan who provided the context and leadership that brought on that implosion.
IMHO if you're going to deny Reagan his props on ending the cold war, then you must do the same for JFK in the race to the moon. It seems to me that consistency requires giving both men the credit they deserve.
We give credit to presidents who establish goals and set policies that wind up benefiting the country. We give credit to Jack Kennedy for getting us to the moon, even though he had been in his grave for six years before Neil Armstrong took his "one small step for a man."
But the president had set the goal of landing a man on the moon "in this decade," and we did it. Subsequent presidents of both parties bought into the goal. Congress after congress appropriated the money to make it happen. And tens of thousands of skilled Americans (and some from Germany) worked like mules to bring Mercury, Gemini and finally Apollo to fruition. But President Kennedy in my view is correctly given the credit for setting that all into motion.
Similarly, Ronald Reagan set out to confront and defeat the Soviet Union.
He did so over keening criticism from the left that he was a dangerous war monger, a fool, and too stupid to understand what he was doing. He faced a sclerotic leadership in the Soviet Union--three general secretaries dropped dead on his watch.
But he persisted--with the Strategic Defense Initiative, 600 ship navy, Peacekeeper missiles, short range missiles in Europe and other defense policies which rendered the Soviet Union unable to maintain the level of spending required to keep up. Ironically, the biggest believers in the ability of the United States to create a workable missile defense were in the Kremlin (and still are). And the anti-SDI types in America who said "well, all the Soviets have to do is increase the boost phase of their ICBMs to defeat it" missed the point that doing so would cost them hundreds of billions of dollars, which they didn't have.
Reagan once made a joke during a mic check about the missiles are on their way, and the left had a conniption fit. The left didn't like Reagan (which is totally understandable from their perspective) and they really didn't like Reagan confronting the "evil empire" and showing a willingness to back up his policies with force. But at the end of the day the Soviet Union imploded (for lots of reasons) but it was Ronald Reagan who provided the context and leadership that brought on that implosion.
IMHO if you're going to deny Reagan his props on ending the cold war, then you must do the same for JFK in the race to the moon. It seems to me that consistency requires giving both men the credit they deserve.
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Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
His props for, or his role in?
Sure, Reagan played a role. But there are a lot of people, things, and events that played an important role in ending the Cold War - and some of 'em were even Soviet.
His props for, or his role in?
Sure, Reagan played a role. But there are a lot of people, things, and events that played an important role in ending the Cold War - and some of 'em were even Soviet.
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
De Nile is obviously more than a river in Egypt. "Reagan played a role," I hope you didn't hurt yourself with that one. Kennedy "played a role" in the space race too, but I'm willing to bet you're prepared to give him huge credit for getting us to the moon, as am I. Why so niggardly when it comes to giving Reagan credit?
His props for, or his role in?
Sure, Reagan played a role. But there are a lot of people, things, and events that played an important role in ending the Cold War - and some of 'em were even Soviet.
De Nile is obviously more than a river in Egypt. "Reagan played a role," I hope you didn't hurt yourself with that one. Kennedy "played a role" in the space race too, but I'm willing to bet you're prepared to give him huge credit for getting us to the moon, as am I. Why so niggardly when it comes to giving Reagan credit?
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
The two things aren't comparable at all. Putting a guy on the moon is an engineering puzzle. No offense to engineers. The moon didn't play defense. Ending the Cold War on favorable terms was the central political concern of the free world in the 2nd half of the 20th Century.
Responding to your skepticism will be easier if I know what the argument is. How, again, did Reagan end the Cold War?
The two things aren't comparable at all. Putting a guy on the moon is an engineering puzzle. No offense to engineers. The moon didn't play defense. Ending the Cold War on favorable terms was the central political concern of the free world in the 2nd half of the 20th Century.
Responding to your skepticism will be easier if I know what the argument is. How, again, did Reagan end the Cold War?
Re: Death to the Incumbent!! Your guide to the 2010 primaries
So I imagine pretty much anyone on the left will say the Cold War ended in spite of Reagan's efforts since he was clearly a war monger who was hell bent on deficit spending to feed the military industrial complex beast. Hell, they probably give Gorbachev far more credit than they'd ever give Reagan.
Because when it comes to the true believers on either side of the aisle, good things only happen because their side is in office. If the other side is in office at the time, good things happened in spite of them being there.
So I imagine pretty much anyone on the left will say the Cold War ended in spite of Reagan's efforts since he was clearly a war monger who was hell bent on deficit spending to feed the military industrial complex beast. Hell, they probably give Gorbachev far more credit than they'd ever give Reagan.
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