Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
OK, now you're just bringing logic to this conversation. Who wants to be bogged down in logic?
OK, now you're just bringing logic to this conversation. Who wants to be bogged down in logic?
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D-III Women's Bracketology
- Thread starter spwood
- Start date
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
And now I'll try. The NCAA doesn't care that you won or lost your conference title game. Other than to hand out the Pool A bid (which is the conference's call to use the tourney, not the NCAA), that game isn't weighted any heavier than the other 25 played. You can't make any case that LF, Norwich, or Trinity had a better year than the teams they are visiting this week.
And now I'll try. The NCAA doesn't care that you won or lost your conference title game. Other than to hand out the Pool A bid (which is the conference's call to use the tourney, not the NCAA), that game isn't weighted any heavier than the other 25 played. You can't make any case that LF, Norwich, or Trinity had a better year than the teams they are visiting this week.
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
Yes, they can compete. However, at this point history has told us that the western teams have not been winning games against the east in March. That's not "elitist". The results have spoken for themselves. I believe the difference lies in the number of highly competitive teams in each region. The east has Plattsburgh, Norwich, Elmira, Middlebury (and in the past Manhattanville). Those teams play each other early and often during the season. The west doesn't seem to have the same depth, and therefore can't play those tougher schedules during the year. Come March, the eastern powers are battle tested and have, much more often than not, prevailed in head to head battles with western powers. Results have spoken for themselves and there's nothing "elitist" about them.
Yes, they can compete. However, at this point history has told us that the western teams have not been winning games against the east in March. That's not "elitist". The results have spoken for themselves. I believe the difference lies in the number of highly competitive teams in each region. The east has Plattsburgh, Norwich, Elmira, Middlebury (and in the past Manhattanville). Those teams play each other early and often during the season. The west doesn't seem to have the same depth, and therefore can't play those tougher schedules during the year. Come March, the eastern powers are battle tested and have, much more often than not, prevailed in head to head battles with western powers. Results have spoken for themselves and there's nothing "elitist" about them.
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
I think from now on I'll pay very little attention to the rankings that are posted week to week. Especially when Wis-Falls jumps from 6 to 3. It's obvious they don't meen anything unless your 1 or 2 throughout the whole season. But then again look Elmira, they had a great season, wind up at 2 and they got to go beat a very good Trinity team. Basically just try to win your conference to get in and play your best.
I think from now on I'll pay very little attention to the rankings that are posted week to week. Especially when Wis-Falls jumps from 6 to 3. It's obvious they don't meen anything unless your 1 or 2 throughout the whole season. But then again look Elmira, they had a great season, wind up at 2 and they got to go beat a very good Trinity team. Basically just try to win your conference to get in and play your best.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
Your asking me that in repsonse to my post that said I won't be paying any attention to polls anymore. Does that answer your question?
Your asking me that in repsonse to my post that said I won't be paying any attention to polls anymore. Does that answer your question?
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
No because Im not sure why someone who knows how the process works would even look at the USCHO/D3 poll anyways when talking about the NCAA playoffs....you then went on to say "don't meen anything unless your 1 or 2 throughout the whole season" so I was asking a question in regards to you understanding the process....
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Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
Interesting point in the NCAA release regarding hosting duties for the women's final four: they mention women's hockey is the only "non-predetermined championship site". I wonder if this situation is going to change that in the future.
Interesting point in the NCAA release regarding hosting duties for the women's final four: they mention women's hockey is the only "non-predetermined championship site". I wonder if this situation is going to change that in the future.
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
When I see Wis-Falls with the (3) in front of there name and (4)Norwich at (5)Middlebury, it makes me wonder why anyone would bother putting a number in front of any team at this point of the season. It's quite obvious the numbers we see in front of the teams have no bearing on who play's who or where. Platty is definitely a 1, Elmira is a 2 and St. Thomas is an 8. These numbers become meaningless when you jump a 6 to a 3 (Wis-Falls) ,tell me Trinity is a 7 and you send a 4 to a 5. I understand it's D3, travel, money the whole bit. Just not going to click on polls anymore that's all. I'll save that for college football.
When I see Wis-Falls with the (3) in front of there name and (4)Norwich at (5)Middlebury, it makes me wonder why anyone would bother putting a number in front of any team at this point of the season. It's quite obvious the numbers we see in front of the teams have no bearing on who play's who or where. Platty is definitely a 1, Elmira is a 2 and St. Thomas is an 8. These numbers become meaningless when you jump a 6 to a 3 (Wis-Falls) ,tell me Trinity is a 7 and you send a 4 to a 5. I understand it's D3, travel, money the whole bit. Just not going to click on polls anymore that's all. I'll save that for college football.
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
Okay like I said, you don't understand the process. Take a look at the men's. They have Norwich #1 and Amherst #8 when in the tournament Amherst was the #1 east seed and Norwich is the #5 or #6 seed. The USCHO Polls are a joke and have been for years. Most coaches have their assistants secretary fill out the poll. The only "POLL" you need to concern yourself with is the NCAA Rankings that start in February.
For your viewing pleasure http://www.uscho.com/rankings/ncaa-womens-d-iii-rankings/
And if you want things explained to you: http://d3hockey.com/bracketology/women/14-15/ncaa-tournament-selection-process
Okay like I said, you don't understand the process. Take a look at the men's. They have Norwich #1 and Amherst #8 when in the tournament Amherst was the #1 east seed and Norwich is the #5 or #6 seed. The USCHO Polls are a joke and have been for years. Most coaches have their assistants secretary fill out the poll. The only "POLL" you need to concern yourself with is the NCAA Rankings that start in February.
For your viewing pleasure http://www.uscho.com/rankings/ncaa-womens-d-iii-rankings/
And if you want things explained to you: http://d3hockey.com/bracketology/women/14-15/ncaa-tournament-selection-process
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
Ok, so as far as this 1 through 8 field is concerned. You think Wis-Falls is a legit 3 and should play Lake Forest and Elmira should be playing Trinity. I agree with you the rankings are a joke and from now on I'll pay little or no attention to them. Don't try to tell me Elmira should be playing Trinity because there number 1 and 2 ranking all season was not a joke.
Ok, so as far as this 1 through 8 field is concerned. You think Wis-Falls is a legit 3 and should play Lake Forest and Elmira should be playing Trinity. I agree with you the rankings are a joke and from now on I'll pay little or no attention to them. Don't try to tell me Elmira should be playing Trinity because there number 1 and 2 ranking all season was not a joke.
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
"Elitist" implies that they have anointed themselves masters of the universe while I am arguing that recent results suggest they are just the stronger region right now. When the West wins a few of these games, that perception will change.
It's just like the NBA. The Western conference is just accepted to be stronger right now. It doesn't make them elitists.
"Elitist" implies that they have anointed themselves masters of the universe while I am arguing that recent results suggest they are just the stronger region right now. When the West wins a few of these games, that perception will change.
It's just like the NBA. The Western conference is just accepted to be stronger right now. It doesn't make them elitists.
gojackets
New member
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
I dont understand your comments/concerns. You're obviously a Norwich fan, looking at your posting history, and i'm guessing your upset that Norwich has to travel to Middlebury.
Is River Falls a legit #3. Absolutely. They are by far the best team in the west and will hopefully show that out east. They have more or less the same record as Plattsburgh and Elmira. And if there wasn't an automatic increase in strength of schedule for playing east of Michigan, then they would have a similar SOS. In my opinion they have a very legitimate chance of winning the whole thing.
If there weren't autobids for winning conference tourneys Norwich wouldn't be in the field of 8, they play a very weak schedule and from all comparisons, aren't that good. Hell they barely beat Castleton to make it into the field.
Have you watched River Falls play? I've watched them several times, I've watched everyone in this field play at least once (St. Thomas being the once--and that was half a game, they will lose to Plattsburgh) River Falls is better than Middlebury/Trinity/Norwich/Lake Forest/St. Thomas...and will put up one helluva fight against the other two.
Your comments show your ignorance of how the field is set. They have two priorities when setting the match-ups after the teams are selected. Avoiding flights and avoiding inter-conference match-ups. USCHO poll has nothing to do with any of this process.
So knowing that...I absolutely think that River Falls should be hosting Lake Forest and Elmira should be hosting Trinity. According to NCAA criteria Middlebury and Trinity can't play in the first round.
What are you campaigning for?...Based of current USCHO rankings
St Thomas to Plattsburgh
Lake Forest to Elmira
Trinity to River Falls(or your an east fan, which probably means you think River Falls to Trinity)
Middlebury to Norwich?
Because quite frankly that is stupid.
The thing you can see when you look at the D3 bracket, following general bracketing rules, is that the NCAA has the top 4 teams as
1. Plattsburgh
2. Elmira
3. River Falls
4. Middlebury
Because if the favorites win you have (1) Plattsburgh vs (4) Middlebury and (2) Elmira vs (3) River Falls
I dont understand your comments/concerns. You're obviously a Norwich fan, looking at your posting history, and i'm guessing your upset that Norwich has to travel to Middlebury.
Is River Falls a legit #3. Absolutely. They are by far the best team in the west and will hopefully show that out east. They have more or less the same record as Plattsburgh and Elmira. And if there wasn't an automatic increase in strength of schedule for playing east of Michigan, then they would have a similar SOS. In my opinion they have a very legitimate chance of winning the whole thing.
If there weren't autobids for winning conference tourneys Norwich wouldn't be in the field of 8, they play a very weak schedule and from all comparisons, aren't that good. Hell they barely beat Castleton to make it into the field.
Have you watched River Falls play? I've watched them several times, I've watched everyone in this field play at least once (St. Thomas being the once--and that was half a game, they will lose to Plattsburgh) River Falls is better than Middlebury/Trinity/Norwich/Lake Forest/St. Thomas...and will put up one helluva fight against the other two.
Your comments show your ignorance of how the field is set. They have two priorities when setting the match-ups after the teams are selected. Avoiding flights and avoiding inter-conference match-ups. USCHO poll has nothing to do with any of this process.
So knowing that...I absolutely think that River Falls should be hosting Lake Forest and Elmira should be hosting Trinity. According to NCAA criteria Middlebury and Trinity can't play in the first round.
What are you campaigning for?...Based of current USCHO rankings
St Thomas to Plattsburgh
Lake Forest to Elmira
Trinity to River Falls(or your an east fan, which probably means you think River Falls to Trinity)
Middlebury to Norwich?
Because quite frankly that is stupid.
The thing you can see when you look at the D3 bracket, following general bracketing rules, is that the NCAA has the top 4 teams as
1. Plattsburgh
2. Elmira
3. River Falls
4. Middlebury
Because if the favorites win you have (1) Plattsburgh vs (4) Middlebury and (2) Elmira vs (3) River Falls
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gojackets
New member
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
8-10 years ago, I would have agreed with this...but I don't think its true anymore.
Plattsburgh played Elmira 4 times, Middlebury once, Norwich twice, and this year Gustavus once. That's 8 games against NCAA ranked teams. The rest of their schedule is made up of .500 or lower teams.
Elmira played Plattsburgh 4 times, Norwich 2x, Middlebury 2x 8 games and the rest is .500 or lower.
I know they play Oswego is over 500 but the record is so inflated.
River Falls played St. Thomas(in the tournament) twice, Bethel twice, Stevens Point 5 times, Gustavus once, Lake Forest once. Throw 4 against Superior-who was once ranked. River Falls had 9 games against teams with .500 or lower records (6 of those were Eau Claire)
Plattsbrugh comparably had 17 games against teams with a .500 or lower record. Elmira also had 17.
Which again begs the question...how much of an upgrade does the SOS rating get solely for being in the "elite" east. How can you have 17 games (more than half) against losing teams and have the highest strength of schedule?
I highly doubt it. The issue is that even on the D3 men's side, you have a lot of people who will travel to the D3 final four for their teams and just to watch the games. That doesn't happen on the women's side. Just look at the attendance records. When Amherst played Norwich in the championship game at Gustavus in 2010, the attendance was 138 vs the championship game at Plattsburgh last year that was over 1600. The semifinal game with Gustavus @ Gustavus was over 1600. The D3 womans attendance completely depends on the hosting teams fans.
Last Year on the D3 men's side you had St. Norbert vs Stevens Point in the championship game (in Maine) and the attendance was over 1800
8-10 years ago, I would have agreed with this...but I don't think its true anymore.
Plattsburgh played Elmira 4 times, Middlebury once, Norwich twice, and this year Gustavus once. That's 8 games against NCAA ranked teams. The rest of their schedule is made up of .500 or lower teams.
Elmira played Plattsburgh 4 times, Norwich 2x, Middlebury 2x 8 games and the rest is .500 or lower.
I know they play Oswego is over 500 but the record is so inflated.
River Falls played St. Thomas(in the tournament) twice, Bethel twice, Stevens Point 5 times, Gustavus once, Lake Forest once. Throw 4 against Superior-who was once ranked. River Falls had 9 games against teams with .500 or lower records (6 of those were Eau Claire)
Plattsbrugh comparably had 17 games against teams with a .500 or lower record. Elmira also had 17.
Which again begs the question...how much of an upgrade does the SOS rating get solely for being in the "elite" east. How can you have 17 games (more than half) against losing teams and have the highest strength of schedule?
I highly doubt it. The issue is that even on the D3 men's side, you have a lot of people who will travel to the D3 final four for their teams and just to watch the games. That doesn't happen on the women's side. Just look at the attendance records. When Amherst played Norwich in the championship game at Gustavus in 2010, the attendance was 138 vs the championship game at Plattsburgh last year that was over 1600. The semifinal game with Gustavus @ Gustavus was over 1600. The D3 womans attendance completely depends on the hosting teams fans.
Last Year on the D3 men's side you had St. Norbert vs Stevens Point in the championship game (in Maine) and the attendance was over 1800
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Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
They have, in the recent past, made the championship site be in Minnesota to allow the Western teams to be the host regardless of the rankings. I think the agreement is every three years they will repeat the process. Which, if my memory isn't fading too much, means next year. They may try to find a neutral site in the East, but usually the top teams out East (Plattsburgh, Elmira, Middlebury, Norwich, Amherst) all have sufficiently adequate rinks for hosting.
They have, in the recent past, made the championship site be in Minnesota to allow the Western teams to be the host regardless of the rankings. I think the agreement is every three years they will repeat the process. Which, if my memory isn't fading too much, means next year. They may try to find a neutral site in the East, but usually the top teams out East (Plattsburgh, Elmira, Middlebury, Norwich, Amherst) all have sufficiently adequate rinks for hosting.
Re: D-III Women's Bracketology
The only two non-conference games you failed to list are Manhattanville (1 game below .500, but up until recently was a national power) in a tournament and Castleton (2 games over .500 and just lost their conference championship game 1-0). The rest of the games on their schedule are conference games that they can't control.
Elmira's non-conferences games not listed are Manhattanville in the same tourney and Williams. See above for there being nothing they can do about the rest of their conference.
Are you accusing a computer of inflating eastern SOS?
I wholeheartedly agree with you that River Falls is at worst the #3 seed in this tourney. I once again point out, though, until western teams start winning some games against eastern teams in March, the perception will be that the top teams in the east are a little better than the top teams in the west.
The only two non-conference games you failed to list are Manhattanville (1 game below .500, but up until recently was a national power) in a tournament and Castleton (2 games over .500 and just lost their conference championship game 1-0). The rest of the games on their schedule are conference games that they can't control.
Elmira's non-conferences games not listed are Manhattanville in the same tourney and Williams. See above for there being nothing they can do about the rest of their conference.
Are you accusing a computer of inflating eastern SOS?
I wholeheartedly agree with you that River Falls is at worst the #3 seed in this tourney. I once again point out, though, until western teams start winning some games against eastern teams in March, the perception will be that the top teams in the east are a little better than the top teams in the west.
PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
It's once every four years it has to be in the West. 2013 was Superior, Plattsburgh in 2014 and likely 2015. Next year can be East again then in 2017 it goes West.