College Football Players---Students or Employees?

[Handyman]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.

Ummm...so then a chem student on scholarship should be able to do the same?

BTW I think UNC should get the death penalty for what is going on. College athletes are students first in my mind and if they arent going to even pretend to take it seriously they should be gone. Also, any coach who tells a player they cant take a certain major should be fired. This does not include the Colter situation because I think that dude is full of it.

 

[LynahFan]

Ummm...so then a chem student on scholarship should be able to do the same?

Sure - if you can show me a chemistry department who runs its students' lives in anywhere close to the same manner that the Northwestern athletic department does to its football players.

BTW I think UNC should get the death penalty for what is going on. College athletes are students first in my mind and if they arent going to even pretend to take it seriously they should be gone. Also, any coach who tells a player they cant take a certain major should be fired. This does not include the Colter situation because I think that dude is full of it.

No arguments from me.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Right, but perhaps their true "market value" is $200,000, but we don't know because they can't get it - can't even negotiate for it - because their employer is engaging in business practices that would be illegal in any other industry.

Going to suck when they graduate and get that $80,000 tax bill, plus interest and penalties.

 

[Priceless]

Why don't they get a federal student loan and skip this scenario?

Why would they take a student loan that they have to pay back at 5% when someone offers a sweetheart deal?

 

[mookie1995]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

blah blah blah....

each big ten school last season made 20.67mm off their tv contact for football.
even the nfl only keeps 50% of that and let's the players have the rest in the 'salary cap'.

so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

blah blah blah....

each big ten school last season made 20.67mm off their tv contact for football.
even the nfl only keeps 50% of that and let's the players have the rest in the 'salary cap'.

so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!

Yeah, the Big Time State schools that are powerhouse programs are the one's that could in theory get away with paying their football players, but its the cupcake schools that those schools bring in that are clearly have nots that don't get that kind of money are the ones that are going to go belly up if this ever goes into effect. First off, they'll never allow it for the just the football players to get paid, the CC team to the cheerleaders are going to want to get paid. And there's a lot of schools that are like already struggling to make ends meet are going to be Fooked if they gotta pay the women's swim team a living wage.

And Heaven help you if you're a fan of a male sport that's semi-expensive to run and doesn't always turn a profit for the school. AD's are going to want to trim the fat somewhere if they do have to pay all of their athletes.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

so the 80 players on each big ten team should get their share of $20.67million. they can afford to pay for school themselves then and who's complaining?!?!

Not sure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically but that is an intriguing solution. End football and men's basketball scholarships entirely and just pay the players to play outright.


oh, wait, then you'll have to figure out pay scales or something like that....what's a left guard worth compared to a cornerback? what happens if someone changes positions?....

never mind, not such a good idea after all....



perhaps totally unrelated....I don't think that the "no NLRB decisions are valid because of faulty 'recess' appointments that occurred when Senate was not in recess" case has yet been decided by SCOTUS. Are decisions made by the current NLRB not part of that challenge because they went back and got requisite confirmation? not sure whether any NLRB decision made within a certain time frame will mean anything, they might all get tossed out. haven't really kept track.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Not sure whether you meant that seriously or sarcastically but that is an intriguing solution. End football and men's basketball scholarships entirely and just pay the players to play outright.


oh, wait, then you'll have to figure out pay scales or something like that....what's a left guard worth compared to a cornerback? what happens if someone changes positions?....

never mind, not such a good idea after all....

At the college level, you're not going to bother figuring out which position is worth more than another on the team. Lineups are too fluid, either due to the immense number of substitutions as part of a coach's gameplan, or just a player not performing. The bigger question would be which player is worth more, do you pay everyone the same base and then provide bonuses to the starters? If a coach is known to platoon players, who's then considered the starter? Regardless, that's something for the schools to work out should the NLRB's decision be upheld.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

At the college level, you're not going to bother figuring out which position is worth more than another on the team. Lineups are too fluid, either due to the immense number of substitutions as part of a coach's gameplan, or just a player not performing. The bigger question would be which player is worth more, do you pay everyone the same base and then provide bonuses to the starters? If a coach is known to platoon players, who's then considered the starter? Regardless, that's something for the schools to work out should the NLRB's decision be upheld.

...and I'm sure there would be a veritable army of economists itching and ready to help them determine those market factors - and get a piece of the action!

 

[joecct]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Again, I do not believe the suit is about pay. I think the plaintiffs are focusing on care of injuries post college.

Right now if Johnny or Betsy suffer a career ending and/or a debilitating life time injury the college or NCAA washes their hands of the student once they're no longer enrolled.

If the plaintiffs prevail, then there will be some form of workers compensation for as long as the former student can't work, which seems to me to be a fair outcome.

 

[CLS]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Again, I do not believe the suit is about pay. I think the plaintiffs are focusing on care of injuries post college.

Right now if Johnny or Betsy suffer a career ending and/or a debilitating life time injury the college or NCAA washes their hands of the student once they're no longer enrolled.

If the plaintiffs prevail, then there will be some form of workers compensation for as long as the former student can't work, which seems to me to be a fair outcome.

There's nothing in this suit that limits it to care of injuries post college. Regardless of what this group of plaintiffs wants to bargain about now, there's nothing to prevent them from bargaining about something else later or a players union at some other school to bargain about pay.

If they were really only interested in care of injuries post college, that's what they should have sued for. But they didn't.

 

[Patman]

There's nothing in this suit that limits it to care of injuries post college. Regardless of what this group of plaintiffs wants to bargain about now, there's nothing to prevent them from bargaining about something else later or a players union at some other school to bargain about pay.

If they were really only interested in care of injuries post college, that's what they should have sued for. But they didn't.

My guess is the people financing this stuff want to break it all open. The unions sense a money opportunity. Altruism doesn't build golf courses

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

The vast, vast, vast majority of scholarship Div I players never sniff the NFL or any pro contract, and I see no reason to start paying out just because a minute amount doesn't care about their education. If they're only there to build for the NFL they can wait to get paid just like every college student. Nobody is forcing them into football, no one is forcing them to not value a chance at a degree that will last far longer than the average 3 year pro career. I don't care that they may get injured and not get to the NFL, life doesn't end with a broken leg.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

There's nothing in this suit that limits it to care of injuries post college. Regardless of what this group of plaintiffs wants to bargain about now, there's nothing to prevent them from bargaining about something else later or a players union at some other school to bargain about pay.

If they were really only interested in care of injuries post college, that's what they should have sued for. But they didn't.

And just because one side bargains about pay doesn't mean that the other side has to cave in. All they "sued" for was to be recognized as a union to collectively bargain with the university. All that requires of Northwestern is to bargain in good faith.

At the end of the day, the University will have only itself to blame by treating these players as employees. If they focused on academics more than football, and didn't significantly control the players' lives there wouldn't be much of a leg to stand on for the players.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Nobody is forcing them into football, no one is forcing them to not value a chance at a degree that will last far longer than the average 3 year pro career.

Then how do you respond to the fact that players at Northwestern were unable to take classes for their desired major (and subsequently had to take less demanding majors due to the crazy amount of hours they had to put in) without losing their scholarship?

 

[Handyman]

Then how do you respond to the fact that players at Northwestern were unable to take classes for their desired major (and subsequently had to take less demanding majors due to the crazy amount of hours they had to put in) without losing their scholarship?

First of all it is not a fact since it is just a story given by a biased party with no evidence that I have seen. (admittedly I havent followed the story in a few days)

I respond that I think Colter is lying. If by some chance he isnt lying, then Pat Fitzgerald should be canned. Also if I read the story right Colter (if he is who you are referencing) said it was suggested he not be pre-med because the classes he needed would conflict with practice times. They never flat out said "if you take this we are ending your scholarship". I dont see the NW Board of Regents thinking that is kosher...

Minnesota has players that have majors like biochem on their team with schedules that are as rigid as any out there and they make it work. I just highly doubt a school like NW, that prides itself on education and really could give two craps about athletics overall (as evidenced by their weak fanbase and terrible facilities) would force athletes to drop majors because of athletics. Ohio State maybe..and SEC school for sure...but Northwestern? Sorry that doesnt hold water to me...

 

[Priceless]

The vast, vast, vast majority of scholarship Div I players never sniff the NFL or any pro contract, and I see no reason to start paying out just because a minute amount doesn't care about their education. If they're only there to build for the NFL they can wait to get paid just like every college student. Nobody is forcing them into football, no one is forcing them to not value a chance at a degree that will last far longer than the average 3 year pro career. I don't care that they may get injured and not get to the NFL, life doesn't end with a broken leg.

What if your coach sends you up on scaffolding to videotape practice even though there are 50 mph winds and you die? Does life end then?

What if you're trying to check an opponent and slip and break your spine? What if you're blocking on a kick return and end up paralyzed? I guess the school and the NCAA should be able to write you off. I mean, it's not like it's the end of the world.

 

[Handyman]

What if your coach sends you up on scaffolding to videotape practice even though there are 50 mph winds and you die? Does life end then?

What if you're trying to check an opponent and slip and break your spine? What if you're blocking on a kick return and end up paralyzed? I guess the school and the NCAA should be able to write you off. I mean, it's not like it's the end of the world.

I think we all agree that athletes should get better coverage for health concerns. If they are injured or have long lasting effects because of the sport they play the school should be responsible for fixing that.

The problem isnt that, it is the unintended consequences that come about with unionization. Health care will be pushed aside almost immediately as more "fiscal" issues are brought to the forefront. College football will turn into the NFL quickly to the detriment of pretty much every other sport on campus not named college basketball. Money is already an issue in these sports and making the players employees as opposed to amateur students will open the floodgates.

Unionization is like the BTHC, it is the worth possible solution to the problems the NCAA is facing. The BTHC caused the conference realignment that was desperately needed to the detriment of everynes feelings. There were better ways to go about it just like there are other ways for the athletes to get better health care.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

First of all it is not a fact since it is just a story given by a biased party with no evidence that I have seen. (admittedly I havent followed the story in a few days)

I respond that I think Colter is lying. If by some chance he isnt lying, then Pat Fitzgerald should be canned. Also if I read the story right Colter (if he is who you are referencing) said it was suggested he not be pre-med because the classes he needed would conflict with practice times. They never flat out said "if you take this we are ending your scholarship". I dont see the NW Board of Regents thinking that is kosher...

Minnesota has players that have majors like biochem on their team with schedules that are as rigid as any out there and they make it work. I just highly doubt a school like NW, that prides itself on education and really could give two craps about athletics overall (as evidenced by their weak fanbase and terrible facilities) would force athletes to drop majors because of athletics. Ohio State maybe..and SEC school for sure...but Northwestern? Sorry that doesnt hold water to me...

First, you should read the NLRB decision and see the evidence used to come to that determination. It's pretty clear that what happened to Colter happened to others, and people testified as such under oath. In our Sports Law class, Professor Brandt (Andrew Brandt...former VP for the Packers and ESPN commentator) brought in some of the football players from Villanova. They essentially said this was rampant there, and rampant pretty much everywhere they had seen. But go ahead, turn a blind eye to it...

As for Colter, he was pre-med, and couldn't take the classes that he needed without it conflicting with practice. Had he missed practice (or portions of practice), he would have lost his scholarship. It's not that difficult to see...unless you don't want to see it. Of course, you're extremely biased against Colter (think he's lying when he has no reason to do so...he won't be the one who benefits from this movement), so I'm sure you'll find some other excuse.

Second, who cares about Minnesota? They are a public school and there will be no unionization of players at public schools anytime soon (barring significant legislation that will never happen). It's a completely different situation than Northwestern. As for those players taking difficult majors, I'd be curious to see if they are scholarship players, and, if so, if they graduate with those degrees.

 

[Handyman]

First, you should read the NLRB decision and see the evidence used to come to that determination. It's pretty clear that what happened to Colter happened to others, and people testified as such under oath. In our Sports Law class, Professor Brandt (Andrew Brandt...former VP for the Packers and ESPN commentator) brought in some of the football players from Villanova. They essentially said this was rampant there, and rampant pretty much everywhere they had seen. But go ahead, turn a blind eye to it...

As for Colter, he was pre-med, and couldn't take the classes that he needed without it conflicting with practice. Had he missed practice (or portions of practice), he would have lost his scholarship. It's not that difficult to see...unless you don't want to see it. Of course, you're extremely biased against Colter (think he's lying when he has no reason to do so...he won't be the one who benefits from this movement), so I'm sure you'll find some other excuse.

Second, who cares about Minnesota? They are a public school and there will be no unionization of players at public schools anytime soon (barring significant legislation that will never happen). It's a completely different situation than Northwestern. As for those players taking difficult majors, I'd be curious to see if they are scholarship players, and, if so, if they graduate with those degrees.

They are and they do. You want to twist things to fit your agenda go ahead (this isnt public vs. private) fact is plenty of athletes make tough schedules work while on scholarship at major universities all over the country both at private schools and public universities. Sorry if my heart doesnt bleed for Colter. He could always choose to quit football and become a doctor...he will make more money since he has zero chance of an NFL future. Hey then he could even get a job...or will he sue when his internship and residency takes up all his time and he makes barely a living wage for a long time. Maybe he can unionize his fellow scrubwearers!!

Seriously, you think Northwestern would sacrifice its outstanding educational reputation over a QB for a football team that barely registers at all? They wont even renovate their football stadium but they are going to bend over backwards to allow a coach to screw over his athletes? Athletes btw they are funding to go there? Sorry that stinks like a rotten fish. If it is true than NW should face some serious sanctions but I just dont think so.