Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

It's funny to me to hear how the 09 championship is almost becoming disregarded here because the team was loaded with talent, etc etc....

Let me see if I can succinctly explain what I think many have been saying. We're all happy that they won. But let's take, for example (heh heh) BC...when they had "overwhelming talent," they played like it. Did you see the win over Wisconsin last year? They didn't exactly eek it out. They flew up and down the ice and completely demolished the Badgers. They dominated teams they were supposed to dominate and they controlled games that they needed to. Yeah, everyone has hiccups and I'm sure there were some nail-biting games, but the point is that in every game it was abundantly CLEAR that they were the better team. That's NOT the case with BU in 2009 - sorry, but any other interpretation is revisionist history. The feeling you got when BC won last year was that there was no doubt that they were clearly a level above everyone else. Can you say that about the '09 BU team (after pullling your heart out from your throat)? I would say, yeah, we're thrilled, but it's really more like we were relieved, because they were SUPPOSED to win. Are you saying that our talent level in '09 was not AT LEAST as dominant as was BC's last year? So shouldn't that team have played as though they were going to take no prisoners and destroy their opponents, instead of playing down to their opponents level? The conclusion, at least the one that I draw, is that there is a problem with motivation in this program. If they can "barely" win with a far superior team, how can you expect much when they don't have an upper echelon team in terms of talent level? I'm not explicitly offering an opinion on whose fault that is or blaming anyone specifically, because that isn't the topic of this post. This post is addressing your assertion that we are "deminishing" their accomplishments. I don't think that's the case - I'm just trying to honestly assess it. The reality is, if they WEREN'T way above everyone else in talent level, they would never have won. And, as others previously have mentioned, is this what this program has now become? If they're not WAY better, they have no chance of winning? What happened to winning (or at least challenging) when they had equal or slightly less talent? The poster who said they have not won an NCAA game in which they were even money or favored since Michigan in 1977 is ABSOLUTELY ON TARGET. That's what this whole thing is about. ANYBODY could have coached the 1984 Celtics to a championship. So is this BU's legacy now? Win when it's a no-brainer and forget the rest of the time???

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Sorry...I meant 1997! (and I didn't mean to spell "diminishing" wrong, either!!!

 

[bantam75]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Wow, this has turned into an entertaining thread...

It's funny to me to hear how the 09 championship is almost becoming disregarded here because the team was loaded with talent, etc etc.... really... has there been a national championship team that wasn't loaded with talent? I mean, a high talent leval is kind of a pre-requisite for winning the NCAA.

I'm optimistic for next year... I think the team has a chance to be really really strong.

One last thing.... be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it. .. I've Quinn has been said to be one of the best minds in college hockey... well, if that's ture, why is he not in college hockey?

To your 1st point, I would argue that the following teams were not the favorites to win it all that year: Michigan 1998, Denver 2004, Michigan State 2007, BC 2008. I agree about your "talent" point, but they were not favored going in. BU clearly was the favorite going into the '09FF. They were only #1 seed to survive.

To your 2nd point, I am optimistic going into next year, but I was optimistic in '05, '06, '07 and '08. I was also optimistic before last year.

To your last point, I believe there is much more to the Quinn story.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

OK - maybe it's not "motivation," but the ability to get the most out of the purported "talent," however nebulous that may be to assess. All I know is that SOMEONE is doing it right!

 

[bantam75]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Assuming you mean that the rest of hockey east hates fat, juicy rebounds. Millan has been as frustrating as the rest of them. As someone said upthread, he'll make some spectacular saves, but he'll also seemingly go on frequent brain vacations. Maybe being a senior will cure him of that.

Interesting stat flashed on the board Sunday night .. Millan broke the BU goalie save record for the season this year. What does that tell you about the defense this team played in front of him this year? My view is that this was one of the weakest defensive teams in a while. weaker than any that played in front of Fields or Curry.

Also this year's team took an AWFUL lot of penalties, especially 5 on 3.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Interesting stat flashed on the board Sunday night .. Millan broke the BU goalie save record for the season this year. What does that tell you about the defense this team played in front of him this year?

Yes, I had forgotten about that - that was the same reaction I had when I saw it at the time. And, as I mentioned a couple of days ago, look at their goal differential (+4) as opposed to BC's (+60) or UNH's (+35). And, this is with a "style" that empahsizes goal "prevention." So before anyone says that they didn't blow teams out in '09 "because of the style they played" (referring to my post above), I say "Baloney!"

 

[slurpees]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

To your 1st point, I would argue that the following teams were not the favorites to win it all that year: Michigan 1998, Denver 2004, Michigan State 2007, BC 2008. I agree about your "talent" point, but they were not favored going in. BU clearly was the favorite going into the '09FF.

Sure they were the overwhelming paper favorites, but that doesn't mean that because they played two close games, that something went wrong with the coaches, or the program is in shambles, etc. We can all sit around and play the what if game all we want with those games, but there's just as many equal and opposite what if's that counteract it. What if Millan doesn't allow goals against both UVM and Miami that he would stop 99% of the time? What if Bonino's puck shot against UVM goes 2 inches lower and instead of going off the crossbar, BU has a commanding 3-0 lead late in the first, instead of a 2-1 lead, as UVM goes on to score minutes later, and likely goes on to win big. Don't forget that for relatively long stretches of that game, we dominated UVM, most notably after going up 5-4, I remember counting that they possessed the puck in the BU defensive zone for no more than 60-90 seconds over the final five or six minutes of the game. We didn't allow them to get anything going. I don't even think Madore was able to get to the bench until well under one minute.

Point is, there's so many "if" scenarios for both sides that sitting around and arguing over them and how it reflects on the coaches, program, etc. is like arguing over deck chairs on the Titanic. There are many fair arguments here about Parker, the program, the coaches, and players, and after some subpar seasons in recent years, it's fair to ask questions and talk about what may or may not need to be changed. But going back and picking and choosing things that happened and saying well if this didn't happen, we'd be even more screwed is revisionist at best, and doesn't accomplish anything.

but I was optimistic in '08.

You were optimistic going into 2008? We had unproven and untested goaltending, came off a year in 2007 where the team couldn't score on an empty net, and had a promising but very young and large incoming freshmen class. I didn't expect it to be as bad as it was, but I can't say that I was optimistic for big success going into that year.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Sure they were the overwhelming paper favorites, but that doesn't mean that because they played two close games, that something went wrong with the coaches, or the program is in shambles, etc.

Not to speak for <B>bantam75</B>, but since I share a lot of the same sentiments, here goes: I'm not picking and choosing examples to support my argument. I went to every home game and as many road games as I could get to that year. It was CLEAR that after peaking in mid-season, there was a steady decline in the level of play, especially in the post-season. After a not so great quarterfinals (and I realize they were automatically in), they struggled to beat BC in the HE semis with a late three-goal outburst, and then survived against UML in a controversial game. Following that (and I'm not "leaving out" the Ohio State blowout, but that team wasn't even on the same level as the Hockey East teams) they were completely outplayed by UNH and absolutely saved by Millan, allowed Vermont to hang around and were essentially embarrassed by Miami before the "miracle." That is not picking out "if" scenarios; that is the overall feeling for an EXTENDED period of time throughout the second half of that season. They basically "limped" home. I know it sounds as if I am diminishing their accomplishments - but the more people counter with this "but they won it all, why can't you be happy" argument, the more I want to point out what I have mentioned in my previous posts. We don't want to miss the forest from the trees here. We're talking about the state of the program and the overall level that is currently sits at. There is no denying (or if there is, people are "misremembering" - heh heh) that this program has not produced the consistent excellence in the last decade that we have come to expect (and maybe we're spoiled but that's a different argument). As Khan said in the Star Trek "Space Seed" episode, "Superior ability breeds superior desire." So, yes, our expectations are higher, but when you have achieved success, you want to continue and you want more of it. We are not the Kansas City Royals of college hockey; if we were, this entire discussion would be moot. If you are satisfied with the direction of the program, fine, that's your right. But I think that many of us would like to at least see a few more glimpses of the fire and competitiveness that we have been accustomed to in the last 30 years.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

that is the overall feeling for an EXTENDED period of time throughout the second half of that season. They basically "limped" home. I know it sounds as if I am diminishing their accomplishments..

So, this is what it's come to? Downplaying the achievements of a team that won every honor they could have won? Two years after the fact?

Sheesh!

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

So, this is what it's come to? Downplaying the achievements of a team that won every honor they could have won? Two years after the fact?

Sheesh!

No, but the discussion is about comparing who is able to get the most production out of their respective pool of talent. You answer the question then. Here are the choices: BU (1 national championship since 1995), BC (three national championships since 2000 and I'm not sure how many frozen fours). I already SAID that, yes, our expectations are higher (if you read the entire post) and that we are "spoiled" by our past history. By your "handle" I assume you've also been around a long time. Sometimes history doesn't allow us to look at things "in the moment" because we are influenced by our past. On the other hand, I'm not a "rest on your laurels" kind of person. The world is too competitive today (and I'm not going to go down that road...don't even get me started). I'll confine this to BU Hockey. And see, this is exactly what I mean. We can't even have a discussion without my being berated for "degrading and diminishing" their accomplishments. You sound like the "if you don't like it, leave" crowd. So I can't have an opinion that isn't all optimism and roses?

 

[Rover]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Some follow up thoughts:

Most people "get it" out here. The program should achieve a lot higher than it has been. It seems some people think 1 NC win makes it perfectly okay to have another 10 mediocre to bad seasons. That would be fine at a different school without BU's advantages. Its not good enough here. I also agree with the notion that a loaded team like the NC squad should have run roughshod over the competition.

Regarding BU players turning pro, watch one period of their games this year and that will dissuade you that any of these players are ready for the AHL, let alone the NHL. Sure some guys may have potential, but nobody's there yet. Curry couldn't stick in the pros, and he was a better goalie than Millan. I also disagree with this being the worst team D ever. It got to the point where Curry had to make 5 or 6 bull$#!t saves a game to earn a 1-1 tie. I've yet to see Millan do that except for the aforementioned UNH Regional NCAA game where as posters have said, he did single handedly win that game.

However someone asked what the end game is. Realistically Parker will coach until the end of his contract. Before that happens, Bob Brown needs to sit down with him and discuss a transition plan before his contract runs out. Not a discussion of a contract extension, but some ideas for a new coach after 2015. I would have no hope of this happening during the Silber era, but I get the impression Brown actually pays attention to the fact the school has a sports program. I don't care if by some miracle the team wins another NC during that time. He absolutely, positively, needs to be done by the end of this contract. Its realistic, it gives him time to set the program up post-Parker, and its a dignified way out. As far as coaches go, I'd take Quinn first and then Sullivan.

 

[BigRedTerrier]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I don't think BUOT is saying that you can't be critical of the team's performance over an extended period. But I (and I think s/he) find it a bit ridiculous to criticize '09. If you want to say it was an abberation that violated the more consistent downward trend, fine, but to bring it down and say that it almost fits within that downward trend?? C'mon now.

On another point...don't know if others feel this way but I think that even if BU could/should have won those games by 5 goals, I'd still take those victories as they were...some of the most exciting sporting events I've been at ever.

 

[pirate]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I have made many 2009 references, not to say they didn't win or didn't deserve to win, only to point out that the only time we even came close was when everybody thought we had the clear #1 team in the country...I point out the manner of victory not to diminish the result but to point out that the only time we've come up with a 'surprise' it was when we were the overwhelming favorite.

So, it could be argued that the 2009 team met expectations (which were at least F4 level) and it could be said they exceeded them with the NC win. What other recent BU team has exceeded expectations?

Sure, we got some favorable bounces and deflections in 2009...and most would say teams create that luck through effort more than it just drops in their lap...we don't seem to create much luck in other years...we go out, employ the talent we have and don't seem to get more than that out of the team. In my opinion, the number of years we under-achieve far exceed the years when we have over-achieved.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

So, it could be argued that the 2009 team met expectations (which were at least F4 level) and it could be said they exceeded them with the NC win. What other recent BU team has exceeded expectations?

THIS is what I was trying to say. OK, so I didn't do as good a job of it as pirate did. My comments should not be misconstrued as "criticism" merely because I was unable to articulate them as well as pirate. My point was not that I was "discrediting" 2009, but rather pointing out that they barely were able to close the deal when they had by all accounts the overwhelmingly best team in the country. So if they can't "dominate" (and don't attack my choice of words, or if you do, explain to me how those last five or so games demonstrated "domination" - and I didn't say I wouldn't be satisfied with just winning) even with that advantage, what does this mean for ANY other year when they won't have that advantage? I think that I'm not succinct enough, so there are too many other phrases that people can pick up on to water down my points...

 

[joen05]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Interesting stat flashed on the board Sunday night .. Millan broke the BU goalie save record for the season this year. .

Isn't he also only one or two off from being the career wins leader at BU? I remember seeing something like that and hoping (dreaming?) that they could pull that off for him this year.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I would guess the general feeling in admin is jack will help (capital HELP (( wink wink )) ) pick his replacement.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Here's more food for thought...What would've happened from 2004-2009 if neither John Curry nor Matt Gilroy overachieved the way they did? IMO, Curry was the single most important player in the post-Drury era. He basically saved (no pun intended) the program in the 2004-05 season; I think that season and the 2 subsequent seasons could've been quite different if the tandem of Siwiec/Gillespie or Gillespie/Bennett shared duties between the pipes.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I don't think BUOT is saying that you can't be critical of the team's performance over an extended period. But I (and I think s/he) find it a bit ridiculous to criticize '09.

Bingo!

I have seen BU win its NC's, ECAC Titles, HE Titles, etc. There is a sense that they've provided me with plenty of excitement, thrills and so on that makes me reluctant to criticize JP. However, as an older fellow, I just can't take it as seriously as I did. Ultimately, it's entertainment and a diversion from the cold, dark, wet winter. As far as this past season, I was entertained, even taking the wretched power play into account. For that matter, I've found every BU season to be entertaining with the exception of 2006-7 when scoring, and even scoring opportunities, were down all over college hockey. Perhaps, I'm too easily satisfied.

Now, Corey Trivino? That's another matter.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

Here's more food for thought...What would've happened from 2004-2009 if neither John Curry nor Matt Gilroy overachieved the way they did? IMO, Curry was the single most important player in the post-Drury era. He basically saved (no pun intended) the program in the 2004-05 season; I think that season and the 2 subsequent seasons could've been quite different if the tandem of Siwiec/Gillespie or Gillespie/Bennett shared duties between the pipes.

Sure... and what would have happened if Curry had a 5th year and was in net for the 07-08 season?

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University Part IV: Off-Season or New Season?

I don't think BUOT is saying that you can't be critical of the team's performance over an extended period. But I (and I think s/he) find it a bit ridiculous to criticize '09.

My comments should not be misconstrued as "criticism"

bigredterrier: I don't think you are reading very well, so please refer to my quote immediately above. As I said before, if anyone says ANYTHING then they are criticizing. So why do we bother with a forum? I can express my opinion - if you want to interpret it as "criticism," that's your choice. If you reread the rest of that post, you will see my explanation. Other than that, forget it...this dead horse has been beaten enough and nobody is going to change their opinions anyway...