Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

[buoldtimer]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Nevertheless, this brings me to another issue I have with JP. There is no question that he is so afraid to lose that he lets the "top" players do whatever they want and get away with it.

1. Jay Octeau was one of the 1st pairing D-Man on the 1985-86 team. The night before the HE Championship Game vs. BC, Octeau was out past curfew. He sat out the game.

2. I seem to recall that in 1992-93 (perhaps), Doug Friedman, Derek Herlofsky, JP McKersie and Jay Pandolfo were suspended for a game for "socializzing on a night they shouldn't have been socializing".

I don't think the charge of top players getting away with doing what they want is valid.

 

[BUTerrierfan]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

I'm not saying BU hasn't had good talent, and as I said I like BU more, but I believe besides the initial boost from HAA, recruiting has been down compared to BC. It has still been easily second best in the league.

A big question to me is why did Brendan Silk choose BC? His uncle (I believe Dave is his uncle) played for BU. My big point with the few exceptions lately, for every one local stud BU gets, BC gets two.

While I understand the hype for getting "local" players from Mass, I think that programs should always try to bring in the best players available, not key on the ones from their own backyards. If that top player is from CA, TX, IL, NY, CT or MA, it should be predicated upon the best available player for any given position, talent level, need, etc. The question is correct, why are the more local kids not going to BU first, but to BC? Is it BC's pitch that they want more local players and wooing those kids based upon that, they commit to BC first, therefore making it necessary for BU to look outside the area more?

 

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Hasn't BC gotten more of the local talent over the years than BU even before York? I thought even in the 60s and 70s a lot of the players were Canadian.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that recollection. I know around the time of the 1980 Olympics the BU players were from Mass and the team had a good chunk of local talent.

But hasn't BC usually gotten their pick of the local talent?

 

[Agganis]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Hasn't BC gotten more of the local talent over the years than BU even before York? I thought even in the 60s and 70s a lot of the players were Canadian.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that recollection. I know around the time of the 1980 Olympics the BU players were from Mass and the team had a good chunk of local talent.

But hasn't BC usually gotten their pick of the local talent?

I remember sometime in the early-mid 90's looking at the program and seeing TONS of CM kids on the roster, that could easily be more school specific than local domination as a whole, and I also could be remembering it wrong as I was just a wee tot.

 

[yankeefn01]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

In the hiatus of 1997 to 2009 between BU's last two frozen fours, BC has appeared in EIGHT frozen fours.

I would venture a guess that reasons like this attribute to the rationale for why BC is out recruiting BU these days.

 

[Rover]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

I don't post very often, but I read the BU threads and I go to many BU games each year. The thing that amazes me is the pedestal that many of you put JP on. I personally am not (and never have been) convinced of his coaching talent. Yes, the leadership was lacking this year by the captains and they (except Gryba) all had one foot out the door all season. But JP's personnel strategy always mystifies me.

1. Parker Typically plays the top 2 lines of forwards 30-40 minutes per game. The pros average about 18. They are on the PK, PP and their regular shift.
2. When the team is playing poorly, it is simply because the top two lines are playing poorly. So, what does he do? He shortens the bench and gives them more ice time.
3. On a BU team, it is difficult to assess anyone except the top six forwards as far as production due to this crazy allotment of ice time. The fourth line play 2-5 minutes per game. The third line plays 5-12. If you have ever played, you know it is virtually impossible to be productive coming off of the bench every 10 minutes.
4. When there is a penalty, JP will play the top two lines and then he'll typically go back to them after the penalty. Then there 's another penalty... These players get exhausted. How many games were lost in the first half due to over playing certain players?
5. The love-fest with certain players is detrimental. 12 and 27 played so much to the point of ridiculousness. And why? They are good players, but not great. Wouldn't it have made sense to develop more kids? 6 and 22 were on fire with 13 and the team was winning. So what does JP do? He puts 22 on the 4th line and 6 on LW on the 3rd. I am convinced he wants certain players to be stars at the detriment of the team. A third grader would've recognized that as a dumb move.

Show me another team that comes remotely close to this crazy coaching formula. Compare this to BC who rolls their lines and gets productivity throughout their lineup. Or better yet, compare this to Scotty Bowman's strategy. You play well, you play more. You play poorly, you sit. You play well, you move onto the PK and PP for the game. The only forwards that seemed to shuffle in the lineup were 14 and 16 for 15 and 19. They were not the problem and in fact with more reps, they might have been able to contribute more. No one will convince me that any of these players couldn't of been decent penalty killers. Particularly 14 and 15 who can both fly. 14 showed offensive potential early on, but was thrown aside. 12, 27, 13 all started slow but they kept getting the reps. I just don't get it.

JP may be charming. He may have reasonably good recruiting success. But show me how he is a great coach.

Very well thought out and largely correct. I too don't get people who apparently think Parker's job is done once recruiting season is over. For 250K a year, he ought to be expected to get the team ready to play game in and game out. That's what Jerry York does and its resulted in a boatload of HE championships and Frozen Fours. If Claude Julien announced tomorrow that he saw the latest flameout by the B's occuring ahead of time, they'd fire him on the spot? Why? Because what's the point of paying a coach who can diagnose a problem but do nothing about curing it? Unmotivated play is a cardinal sin of coaching. Its one thing if you just don't have the talent. Its another if you underachieve every other year.

As far as players go, Vinny Saponari should have been benched and chewed out on a regular basis. In my nearly 20 years of watching BU hockey, I have never seen a player miss so many wide open nets as he has. You can't keep rewarding that with "you'll get 'em next time". He has to produce out there. That's the message the team needs from the top down. Produce or get lost. That's what winning teams do.

 

[candycanes99]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Very well thought out and largely correct. I too don't get people who apparently think Parker's job is done once recruiting season is over. For 250K a year, he ought to be expected to get the team ready to play game in and game out. That's what Jerry York does and its resulted in a boatload of HE championships and Frozen Fours. If Claude Julien announced tomorrow that he saw the latest flameout by the B's occuring ahead of time, they'd fire him on the spot? Why? Because what's the point of paying a coach who can diagnose a problem but do nothing about curing it? Unmotivated play is a cardinal sin of coaching. Its one thing if you just don't have the talent. Its another if you underachieve every other year.

As far as players go, Vinny Saponari should have been benched and chewed out on a regular basis. In my nearly 20 years of watching BU hockey, I have never seen a player miss so many wide open nets as he has. You can't keep rewarding that with "you'll get 'em next time". He has to produce out there. That's the message the team needs from the top down. Produce or get lost. That's what winning teams do.

Tried to rep you, the message on it won't make sense. But basically, it's painful but true. Parker can't get these guys going midseason, but I truly do wonder what he could have done to get these guys over their championship hangover. I think he tried juggling lines to reward/punish players, but it didn't have the effect he was hoping.

 

[Agganis]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

As far as players go, Vinny Saponari should have been benched and chewed out on a regular basis. In my nearly 20 years of watching BU hockey, I have never seen a player miss so many wide open nets as he has. You can't keep rewarding that with "you'll get 'em next time". He has to produce out there. That's the message the team needs from the top down. Produce or get lost. That's what winning teams do.

He was playing hard though, and was one of the most underrated defensive forwards this season. Because he was recruited to score, and put on lines where people think he should score that is not enough in many eyes. However, the solution to that should be dropping him from the top 2 lines, not benching one of the best defensive forwards on the team. If he switched jerseys from 27 to 26 and kept Luke's nameplate no one would be upset at him(although Luke did finish that one-timer from Bonino).

 

[BUT09]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

He was playing hard though, and was one of the most underrated defensive forwards this season. Because he was recruited to score, and put on lines where people think he should score that is not enough in many eyes. However, the solution to that should be dropping him from the top 2 lines, not benching one of the best defensive forwards on the team. If he switched jerseys from 27 to 26 and kept Luke's nameplate no one would be upset at him(although Luke did finish that one-timer from Bonino).

To a degree I agree, but I think I'd be upset with any player that whiffed that many chances.

 

[kennedy]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

In the hiatus of 1997 to 2009 between BU's last two frozen fours, BC has appeared in EIGHT frozen fours.

I would venture a guess that reasons like this attribute to the rationale for why BC is out recruiting BU these days.

Especially locally. Being a hockey player growing up in the 90's, you followed BU, you went to Walter Brown, you dreamed of playing for Jack Parker. Because they were successful. Because if your parents had to pick, why wouldn't they take you to a BU game?

Tables turned in the late 90's and 2000's, and those local kids started going to Conte with their parents, because BC was successful. And they grew up wanting to go to BC and play for Jerry York. And now they do.

Now, all things being equal, with a national title in the bag last year, that should start to even out again if this year was just a blip and BU can maintain the level of success we've come to expect.

 

[Rover]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Why would it matter whether BU is the top athletic program on campus or not? These kids don't likely don't care about that sort of thing.

I'll tell you why BC has recruited better (and I'm sure some fanboy will contend every single point).

1. Jerry York. Parker, aside from last season, had a rough run and his image suffered while throwing all these kids under the bus... It is what it is. I'm not saying Jerry is better, but put the two next to each other and seeing that they've both won and they've both put a lot of guys in the NHL, and most kids will pick York lately with the way he has handled himself and the program.

2. Local kids around this age grew up while BU was mediocre while BC was ridiculous and grew up dreaming of playing for BC. Ask J Whitney about where he was on April 4, 1998. He was a kid rooting for BC at the Garden vs Michigan. The success of BC in this decade long run, with very few bad years and not a ton of great BU years obviously, pays dividends down the road and here you see how BC benefits and BU does not. Additionally, to completely counter your point about BU being a one-trick pony helping them, the potential popularity of two high-profile sports like BC basketball and/or football with some of the local kids that grew up watching them might have also made them want to attend BC. Simply put, a lot of the local athletes dreamed of coming to BC when they were growing up.

3. Perceived better education. We could argue all day and night about which school is better or the ones that concede BC is better will hit you with the token line about "education is what you make of it," but the fact remains that BC is a hot school right now and is perceived to be a better education.

Honorable mention:
Nicer campus.

Essentially, we come to this same thing we ask about why any kid, athlete or non-athlete, why they choose a school. Different strokes for different folks. But BC is a hotter school academically and has been riding a long wave of success on the ice and that really should make it no mystery why BC is recruiting better locally than BU is. A bad start to the season didn't help keep the window open long for Parker to really take away recruits from BC while conversely BC had a nice run in the first half of the season (and beyond).

Call me a fanboy, but...

1) Agreed. York clearly relates better to today's players. I would also add that I wonder what the perception is that kids get from the current players when they visit campus. It seems York's kids are a lot more enthusiastic about playing for him, and I base that on how the team seems to show up every game and tends to overachieve regularly (this season for example).

2) Agreed for hockey. The rest of the stuff is BC dreamin'. Nobody outside of alums cares about BC basketball and football, which is why the fans don't show up for home games and don't travel to away games. Really, if that's a kid's concern, he's going to Michigan or Michigan St. or Ohio St or Notre Dame.

3) I doubt Canadians, New Yorkers, or Minnesotans care much that one school was ranked 38th in a magazine while the other was 55th academically. I'm guessing anybody into that argument is already committed to one school or another for other reasons. Really, in a city where Harvard resides, its a bit tough to get too excited about the academic prowess of either school.

 

[BU-Grad]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

lot of criticism of Parker here... I'm sure some of it is accurate, and there are ways in which York is a better coach than JP. but I just don't see how a guy who has won 800-plus games (3rd all time I think?, and with a better winning % than York), 30 NCAA tournament games (2nd all-time) and 3 national titles can be considered anything but one of the all-time greatest coaches. could anyone criticizing Parker have done a better job, even for a couple seasons?

 

[BU Hammer]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

As far as players go, Vinny Saponari should have been benched and chewed out on a regular basis. In my nearly 20 years of watching BU hockey, I have never seen a player miss so many wide open nets as he has. You can't keep rewarding that with "you'll get 'em next time". He has to produce out there. That's the message the team needs from the top down. Produce or get lost. That's what winning teams do.

I agree with the general idea here, but this is a bad example. Saponari wasn't whiffing because he wasn't focused on scoring goals. He was whiffing because one-timing those passes in front through traffic is a very difficult thing to do, and it's a skill he'll readily admit he's still working on.

After that, I second what Agganis said. The kid was actually fabulous in almost every other aspect of the game after the first couple months. He's as tough as anybody in HE at battling in the corners, plays very sturdy defense, and made a handful of ridiculous passes from in front of the net down the stretch.

I'll take those skills in a top-6 forward, but unfortunately, he and Connolly needed to be top-line scorers, not just top-6 all-around players.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

As far as players go, Vinny Saponari should have been benched and chewed out on a regular basis. In my nearly 20 years of watching BU hockey, I have never seen a player miss so many wide open nets as he has. You can't keep rewarding that with "you'll get 'em next time". He has to produce out there. That's the message the team needs from the top down. Produce or get lost. That's what winning teams do.

he stands out because he is not all that talented yet he is the best option available. his 'error' is not one of effort, but one of skill. it is not his fault that the coaching staff has to put him in a position to fail.

1. Jerry York. .....

2. Local kids around this age grew up while BU was mediocre while BC was ridiculous and grew up dreaming of playing for BC. .....

3. Perceived better education. We could argue all day and night about which school is better or the ones that concede BC is better will hit you with the token line about "education is what you make of it," but the fact remains that BC is a hot school right now and is perceived to be a better education.

1-yup. i've played for yelling coaches in high school. f them. that doesn't motivate me.
2-yup. for the same reason BU got guys in the early and mid 90s and Jerry had to go to NY and get Marty and JD and the original Midget. once Jerry started winning, MA kids went back (just like before... traditionally the igles got local kids, and BU got some, but stocked their team with the Meagher's and Cullen's, etc)
3-yup. there is a dman who was drafted pretty high. both coaches went to the house to meet the kid and parents. one coach talked all about how coming to his school would get him to the nhl. nhl this and nhl that. never mentioned school. the other coach went and said, "you'll get a great education and you'll prepare yourself for the nhl." (school first) this made a big impression. kid plays for the yucky team now.

 

[Federal League]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Don't forget that everyone here criticized Lawrence for whiffing in front, too... despite the fact that he still ended up with 25 goals. I realize Vinny didn't net 25, but he did still put up 30 points... to go along with the forechecking and defensive abilities others have already pointed out. Yes, he needs to work on finishing. No, he shouldn't be benched, or even dropped to the 3rd or 4th line. Effort was never a problem for Vinny, and you don't bench top-6 forwards unless effort's a problem.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

lot of criticism of Parker here... I'm sure some of it is accurate, and there are ways in which York is a better coach than JP. but I just don't see how a guy who has won 800-plus games (3rd all time I think?, and with a better winning % than York), 30 NCAA tournament games (2nd all-time) and 3 national titles can be considered anything but one of the all-time greatest coaches. could anyone criticizing Parker have done a better job, even for a couple seasons?

he is not a bad coach. the numbers you mention speak for their own. he is ab.so.lutely a first ballot hof'er (if there is a hall?!?!?).

but for whatever reason he is not the best on comm ave.

i'm sure the biggest part is the pieces he is able to bring in to play for him.

it's certainly not xo's. heck, i'm always amazed how many times they show the bc bench during timeouts and Jerry is an observer. i'd guess that is him delegating and not exactly a KC Jones/Bernie Bickerstaff deal from Seattle - but it's peculiar. Jerry has the notebook and is always writing stuff down. i'm sure he talks over what he wants and lets Cav stress the points as needed...

 

[sterlippo1]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Call me a fanboy, but...

1) Agreed. York clearly relates better to today's players. I would also add that I wonder what the perception is that kids get from the current players when they visit campus. It seems York's kids are a lot more enthusiastic about playing for him, and I base that on how the team seems to show up every game and tends to overachieve regularly (this season for example).

2) Agreed for hockey. The rest of the stuff is BC dreamin'. Nobody outside of alums cares about BC basketball and football, which is why the fans don't show up for home games and don't travel to away games. Really, if that's a kid's concern, he's going to Michigan or Michigan St. or Ohio St or Notre Dame.

3) I doubt Canadians, New Yorkers, or Minnesotans care much that one school was ranked 38th in a magazine while the other was 55th academically. I'm guessing anybody into that argument is already committed to one school or another for other reasons. Really, in a city where Harvard resides, its a bit tough to get too excited about the academic prowess of either school.

fans don' t show up for football games at BC ??

 

[candycanes99]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

Don't forget that everyone here criticized Lawrence for whiffing in front, too... despite the fact that he still ended up with 25 goals. I realize Vinny didn't net 25, but he did still put up 30 points... to go along with the forechecking and defensive abilities others have already pointed out. Yes, he needs to work on finishing. No, he shouldn't be benched, or even dropped to the 3rd or 4th line. Effort was never a problem for Vinny, and you don't bench top-6 forwards unless effort's a problem.

If Vincent can't correct that issue, then he does need to be dropped to the 3rd line if it turns out somewhere in the middle of next season that Chiasson and Nieto can bang home the goals and he still can't. I criticized Lawrence for whiffing in his sophomore and junior seasons, but he fixed it last year I think most would agree...

If Vinny can manage that kind of turnaround, he'll be on the top line. If not, he should have some competition to be the 1st or 2nd RW.

 

[Federal League]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

If Vincent can't correct that issue, then he does need to be dropped to the 3rd line if it turns out somewhere in the middle of next season that Chiasson and Nieto can bang home the goals and he still can't. I criticized Lawrence for whiffing in his sophomore and junior seasons, but he fixed it last year I think most would agree...

If Vinny can manage that kind of turnaround, he'll be on the top line. If not, he should have some competition to be the 1st or 2nd RW.

I clearly remember people bashing Lawrence at least in the first half last season, and even sporadically in the second half when he'd whiff. It took a while for people to even acknowledge that having him on the top line MIGHT be a good idea.

 

[candycanes99]

Re: Boston University 2010 Offseason I - The Year after the Year after effect

I clearly remember people bashing Lawrence at least in the first half last season, and even sporadically in the second half when he'd whiff. It took a while for people to even acknowledge that having him on the top line MIGHT be a good idea.

Lawrence did whiff a fair number of times at perfect set-ups, but nothing like we had to deal with this year with Vinny. I don't want to criticize him too much because he has some good attributes, but hasn't shown the top 6 potential that we expected and needed this year.