At least seven killed at Fort Hood

[amherstblackbear]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

you kid yourself.
read the Koran.
its not politically correct to speak of it but Islam is not a "religion of peace"

Who has the time? You tell me.

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Not quoting stuff- it was too long.

Pio--I am not a 'conservative' Christian. I am exposed to them. I grew up a Unitarian (now a Lutheran, not Missouri synod ) which exposed me to a lot of different religious beliefs and made me much less likely to assume anything when it came to thinking about a religious faith. I met plenty of people who had been religion X or Y and no one ever describes their religious tenets the same way.

I am not 'turning my back on the extremists'. They are a real threat and dam scary. They are clever, vocal and very good at recruiting and exorting their followers to all sorts of nasty stuff.

I agree there are parts of the world where the extremists hold sway and cow those that don't buy in but do you think they do that in this country? There are plenty of Muslim groups and Imams that have denounced this brand of Islam. There is no supreme leader like a Pope or a Bishop (that I know of) so I think that makes it pretty hard for a a high impact denouncement to take place.

Serious question--Has anyone done an analysis about what percent of Muslims actually participate or believe this is the right path in different parts of the world? I would be curious to know.



husky- It is difficult to ignore the whole Old Testament when you are doing comparisons. If you aren't a Christian and read the Bible there are a lot of things that are open to misinterpretation. There are passages that encourage violence to any that are not Believers,(Leviticus is a beaut) that exhort violence and encourage intolerance to people who don't follow the Law.

I would imagine that people who are not familiar with the religion read the Koran could have the same experience with misinterpretation.

Christians read the Bible, study it and never agree with each other on the True Meaning or what the most important messages are. I can't imagine Mulims are different when they read the Koran otherwise there would not be the different sects.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I have a friend who lived in Saudi Arabia for many years. She thought the woman were so oppressed because they had to go around in the burka in that heat. Said between the burka and the heat there wasn't much jones to change things. She couldn't drive, handle money, shop without a man with her, or go out in public without being covered. If a Saudi woman wishes to leave the country she has to be put on the airplane by either her father or husband. Beheadings were held in the public square.

I agree there are many paths to a spiritual life. Killing and oppression as taught in the Koran is not one of them.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I hate arguing this. don't make broad brush assumptions about Islam being a "peaceful" religion. It isn't. Remember the people cheering in the streets in Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Saudi, etc ect after 911?
Remember the jihad against Salmon Rushdie? the Danish filmmaker gunned down in the streets? the Olympic athletes in Munich? the children blown up in the movie theater in Tel Aviv? the beheading of Daniel Pearl? Sharia Law? on and on and on.

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I have a friend who lived in Saudi Arabia for many years. She thought the woman were so oppressed because they had to go around in the burka in that heat. Said between the burka and the heat there wasn't much jones to change things. She couldn't drive, handle money, shop without a man with her, or go out in public without being covered. If a Saudi woman wishes to leave the country she has to be put on the airplane by either her father or husband. Beheadings were held in the public square.

I agree there are many paths to a spiritual life. Killing and oppression as taught in the Koran is not one of them.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. That is not just the religion but the culture.

Adulterers are supposed to be stoned per the Bible. No one is allowed to get divorced. If your husband dies you are supposed to marry his brother. More than one wife is acceptable and so are concubines. You should cut up many different kind of animals, burn them on an altar as an offering to God. What would a non-Christian think if reading those rules?

Many Orthodox religions have an extremely patriarchal set up that woman have no place in except to be subservient. When I was in college I had a classmate who was Jewish and had no say about her life. Her particular sect was extremely patrarchal. They arranged her marriage. She was in the top of the class but she got married, was expected to quit and make babies. She did. This was in the USA.

Many of the Fundy Christian sects have a deep belief that the man should be in control. Heck, the Missouri Synod Lutherans do not let woman teach boys over the age of 12 or be in any position of power (at least in my area). They even sanctioned the Pastor that communed with the other religious leaders after 9-11.

If you were to judge all Christians would you use those extreme examples? The Middle East is a hotbed of unrest and has been screwed up since Biblical times. Can't see that changing. Yes there are crazy people. Yes they are Muslims. Just like I don't think the guy that blows up abortion clinics, the Irish who blew up each other in the name of Catholicism or Protestantism (so, it isn't a word), the IRA who blew up Mountebatton, and multiple examples of bombs in Britain for the same, (same era as Munich) are the people that define Christians.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Old Testament not the New.

in Islam there is not a difference between culture and religion. that is what Sharia Law is about.

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Old Testament not the New.

in Islam there is not a difference between culture and religion. that is what Sharia Law is about.

But that is the culture that supports the law. Not all Muslims believe in that.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

look at Turkey. or Iraq. I know, I know its not ALL Muslims. I actually know several and most are good people. but, gawd!, there is creepy stuff that goes on. genital mutilation. ah well. I could go on and on and on. I'll let it go. This Fort Hood thing really pulled my chain.

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

look at Turkey. or Iraq. I know, I know its not ALL Muslims. I actually know several and most are good people. but, gawd!, there is creepy stuff that goes on. genital mutilation. ah well. I could go on and on and on. I'll let it go. This Fort Hood thing really pulled my chain.

I decided to go look at the scores instead (what is that hockey stuff anyway??) and the Mack is beating BU. The world should start spinning in the opposite direction any minute and all this other stuff will get jerked around and straightened out.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I decided to go look at the scores instead (what is that hockey stuff anyway??) and the Mack is beating BU. The world should start spinning in the opposite direction any minute and all this other stuff will get jerked around and straightened out.

there you go! Muslims = no hockey. how is that good???

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

there you go! Muslims = no hockey. how is that good???

Some one of the stat geeks will pull out a list to refute that. Who is the guy haunting RFAlph?

and PS- th Ft Hood thing makes me sick too. I had a friend who was stationed there for awhile.

and to further adjust things- Maine won too so wally and Unca are happy and for sure the world might just stop altogether jamming everyone into one big happy blob.

 

[Foxton]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

look at Turkey. or Iraq. I know, I know its not ALL Muslims. I actually know several and most are good people. but, gawd!, there is creepy stuff that goes on. genital mutilation. ah well. I could go on and on and on. I'll let it go. This Fort Hood thing really pulled my chain.

Does circumcision count?

~70% of the males in the US have had it done to them.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Does circumcision count?

~70% of the males in the US have had it done to them.

no.

 

[leswp1]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Does circumcision count?

~70% of the males in the US have had it done to them.

They don't chop off the parts that let the men feel good (not really female circumcision. The medical term is genital mutilation for a reason).

 

[Foxton]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

They don't chop off the parts that let the men feel good (not really female circumcision. The medical term is genital mutilation for a reason).

Oh, I get it, it's only mutilation if you cut off the "good feeling" parts. Mutilation = mutilation, if you're chopping off pieces of someones body, especially when they can't even make a decision on it, you're mutilating them.

For the record, I do think female circumcision is worse.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I hate arguing this. don't make broad brush assumptions about Islam being a "peaceful" religion. It isn't. Remember the people cheering in the streets in Egypt, Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Saudi, etc ect after 911?

I also remember seeing vigils from many Middle Eastern countries and remember that many of the images you'd see coming from the countries named above control their media. And having lived and worked there for 12 months (albeit back in 1996) I recall many locals offering their concern following the Saudi bobming of the same year and many well wishes on the July 4th as well. The masses don't represent the evil messages coming from the minority representation, although I do feel they don't do enough to quell the furor.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Not quoting stuff- it was too long.

Pio--I am not a 'conservative' Christian. I am exposed to them. I grew up a Unitarian (now a Lutheran, not Missouri synod ) which exposed me to a lot of different religious beliefs and made me much less likely to assume anything when it came to thinking about a religious faith. I met plenty of people who had been religion X or Y and no one ever describes their religious tenets the same way.

I am not 'turning my back on the extremists'. They are a real threat and dam scary. They are clever, vocal and very good at recruiting and exorting their followers to all sorts of nasty stuff.

I agree there are parts of the world where the extremists hold sway and cow those that don't buy in but do you think they do that in this country? There are plenty of Muslim groups and Imams that have denounced this brand of Islam. There is no supreme leader like a Pope or a Bishop (that I know of) so I think that makes it pretty hard for a a high impact denouncement to take place.

Serious question--Has anyone done an analysis about what percent of Muslims actually participate or believe this is the right path in different parts of the world? I would be curious to know.



husky- It is difficult to ignore the whole Old Testament when you are doing comparisons. If you aren't a Christian and read the Bible there are a lot of things that are open to misinterpretation. There are passages that encourage violence to any that are not Believers,(Leviticus is a beaut) that exhort violence and encourage intolerance to people who don't follow the Law.

I would imagine that people who are not familiar with the religion read the Koran could have the same experience with misinterpretation.

Christians read the Bible, study it and never agree with each other on the True Meaning or what the most important messages are. I can't imagine Mulims are different when they read the Koran otherwise there would not be the different sects.[/QUOTE

I meant to write "anti-Conservative Christian" or "bias against Conservative Christians," instead I wrote neither. Mea culpa.

And if the Yale University Press and the New York Times can be threatened into silence by threats of jihadi violence or revenge, what chance does the average Muslim have? It would be rather like doing interviews with residents in certain neighborhoods in LA and asking them what they thought of the Crips or Bloods. You might not get an entirely honest answer.

 

[SteveP]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

I hate arguing this. don't make broad brush assumptions about Islam being a "peaceful" religion. It isn't.

Dr. Salim Mansur penned an excellent column in today's Toronto Sun. He calls the killings for what they were -- "an act in the war the Islamists declared some three decades ago against America, the great Satan in particular, and the west in general. "

I often wonder if this outstanding scholar has a fatwa on his head.

A majority of Americans and most people in the west for any number of reasons, including multiculturalism and political correctness, are dismissive of the view that a war is being waged against them by a segment of the global Muslim population that seemingly has no political standing anywhere in the world.

This would not be the first time the liberal fallacy -- the idea that since war is irrational, no rational people will deliberately ignite war -- endangers a country against those dedicated to the politics of violence, as are the Islamists in our time.

Islamist terrorism is not an alien off-shoot within Muslim history. It is instead a mutation of a violent strain of Muslim religious thought and practice that might be traced back to the earliest years of Islam.

 

[Patman]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Dr. Salim Mansur penned an excellent column in today's Toronto Sun. He calls the killings for what they were -- "an act in the war the Islamists declared some three decades ago against America, the great Satan in particular, and the west in general. "

I often wonder if this outstanding scholar has a fatwa on his head.

it bears repeating... look at the actions and times of the "most perfect person"... for all that's stated about how Islam is a peaceful religion one must look at their standard bearer and the ideologies he used and how that manifests itself into modern teaching. Islam and violence are no strangers because Muhammad used militaristic tools from the point of view of society and man management. He wanted his men to be focused so he limited women in society... he wanted adherence so he made 'fitna' or discord a major sin... he wanted a group working together and thus the concept of the 'ummah' the unity of the Muslims within his (and the world's) purview. After that add all the standard anti-Jew anti-Christian stuff.

Then we're surprised that we find an intolerant monolithic religion whose adherents react violently to the actions taking against co-religionists. Their duty to those in their faith is a well grounded principle of Islam. One could argue its a natural reaction (near neighbor to blowback theory)

 

[Tundra]

Re: At least seven killed at Fort Hood

Hopefully, in 400 years there will be a Disney Muhammed to rank with Disney Jesus. The path to sanity is to recognize that the different paths to salvation are equally valid -- plenty of people of all creeds never mature that far, but at the very least almost everybody realizes that murder for religious reasons is idolatry and not spiritual.

Why don't the Islamists get that? I dunno -- my instinct is that air conditioning would go a long way to bringing peace to the Middle East. But no matter whether poverty or imperialism or a ****ty climate or whatever drove them crazy, crazy they are, and sympathy disappears the minute you start hurting innocent people.

Didn't prophet Mohammed create Islam in the 400AD or around there? so they are about 400years behind Christianity. So 1600AD was the break from Catholic Rome's rule and decline of Religion in government, Lutheran in Germany, Anglican Church (King Henry viii divorce) defeat of Spanish Armada and the founding of USA where the religious nuts went to for freedom.

Not sure where the heart of Islam is Iran? (Rome) Saudi? (Israel/Palestine) and not sure if they are breaking apart like Catholic-christianity or they are in the Spanish Inquistion stage trying to hold on to power... but I expect in 400 years they will be where we are now. maybe earlier if they can get rid of the religious influence. And to get there we should flood those countries with Sesame street and MTV.