ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
It does? Where?
It does? Where?
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Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
- Thread starter Old Pio
- Start date
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Right there in the opening paragraph:
I do think the author does make a good point later on though that I hadn't yet heard about Palin claiming it was a surveyor's symbol rather than a gun sight. Come on Sarah.
Right there in the opening paragraph:
I do think the author does make a good point later on though that I hadn't yet heard about Palin claiming it was a surveyor's symbol rather than a gun sight. Come on Sarah.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
That's a crock. Where does it mention Loughner? It doesn't. You're taking a big leap.
That's a crock. Where does it mention Loughner? It doesn't. You're taking a big leap.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Almost as big as a leap of saying Bill O'Reilly blamed the NYT and MSNBC for the attacks, hmmm?
Almost as big as a leap of saying Bill O'Reilly blamed the NYT and MSNBC for the attacks, hmmm?
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
That was a leap. I know cause I took it. He accused them of using the attack for political gain while dismissing the other side.
That was a leap. I know cause I took it. He accused them of using the attack for political gain while dismissing the other side.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
In other news, he evidently had an account on a conspiracy theory forum. Some posts:
Seems like the type of person who would really be influenced by right wing media, doesn't he?
In other news, he evidently had an account on a conspiracy theory forum. Some posts:
Seems like the type of person who would really be influenced by right wing media, doesn't he?
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Once again, even if in Scoobistan the only hate mongers are righties and in the Republic of WeWantMore the inciters to violence are only lefties, moving forward the solution is simple: whenever anyone uses this kind of rhetoric, boo them off the stage, vote them out of office, shun them off the airwaves. Whoever they are, shame them. The past can't be changed, but we create the future.
Once again, even if in Scoobistan the only hate mongers are righties and in the Republic of WeWantMore the inciters to violence are only lefties, moving forward the solution is simple: whenever anyone uses this kind of rhetoric, boo them off the stage, vote them out of office, shun them off the airwaves. Whoever they are, shame them. The past can't be changed, but we create the future.
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WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Indeed he did. Again, you don't need to convince me that he's a rather odious fellow. However, this is what you said last night.
Not exactly the same thing is it? Or close to being the same thing really.
Indeed he did. Again, you don't need to convince me that he's a rather odious fellow. However, this is what you said last night.
Not exactly the same thing is it? Or close to being the same thing really.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
I don't think the inciters of violence are lefties though. I Loughner is the violent one. End of story. Not one other person bears one shred of blame.
I don't think the inciters of violence are lefties though. I Loughner is the violent one. End of story. Not one other person bears one shred of blame.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
I admitted the leap. Where I get that from is having watched him over the years I've watched him progress from someone interesting enough to listen to, to a bitter old man who can't stand the thought that anyone disagrees with his point of view.
Thus despite on the surface my extrapolation seeming far-fetched, with the added context it doesn't appear to be much of a leap.
I admitted the leap. Where I get that from is having watched him over the years I've watched him progress from someone interesting enough to listen to, to a bitter old man who can't stand the thought that anyone disagrees with his point of view.
Thus despite on the surface my extrapolation seeming far-fetched, with the added context it doesn't appear to be much of a leap.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
In the case of Loughner, yes -- if you want to be bored, look back at my posts and they all agree with you that Loughner's voices were coming from inside the house. But unless you disagree with the entire concept of incitement -- or even if you do, for that matter -- what can it hurt to start applying a higher standard today?
In the case of Loughner, yes -- if you want to be bored, look back at my posts and they all agree with you that Loughner's voices were coming from inside the house. But unless you disagree with the entire concept of incitement -- or even if you do, for that matter -- what can it hurt to start applying a higher standard today?
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
The only role that the gun would have played that day?...1) getting him mistaken for another shooter 2) death of an innocent...which he confessed was a real possibility
When Congress allows the public to carry guns in the Capitol or on airlines...then we'll know that guns are 'safe'.
The only role that the gun would have played that day?...1) getting him mistaken for another shooter 2) death of an innocent...which he confessed was a real possibility
When Congress allows the public to carry guns in the Capitol or on airlines...then we'll know that guns are 'safe'.
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Only if you believe the First Amendment is optional. In her listing of people for whom there is no equivalent on the left, she fails to mention that most of the righties that have her knickers in a twist are prominent because millions of Americans read or listen to them. So at the end of the day, the American people are at fault here, for listening to Limbaugh, reading Coulter and (worst of all) electing conservatives. The left TRIED to create an equivalent to Limbaugh (Air America) and it was a stupendous failure.
So we need laws to stop Americans from listening to conservatives (even better, laws taking conservatives off the air) that also compel Americans to listen to liberals. And wouldn't you know it--we're hearing some on Capitol Hill threatening to offer legislation that comes perilously close to those goals. Everybody needs an Arbitron-like diary in which they record their political viewing/listening (subject to government inspection, of course) and anyone who spends "too much" time watching Hannity risks a fine, unless they spend a required amount of time watching Olbermann. Yeah, that'll take care of the "climate of hate."
William F. Buckley, Jr. once said (parahrasing): "Liberals will always claim to defend to the death your right to disagree with them. But they're always astonished that anybody would."
Only if you believe the First Amendment is optional. In her listing of people for whom there is no equivalent on the left, she fails to mention that most of the righties that have her knickers in a twist are prominent because millions of Americans read or listen to them. So at the end of the day, the American people are at fault here, for listening to Limbaugh, reading Coulter and (worst of all) electing conservatives. The left TRIED to create an equivalent to Limbaugh (Air America) and it was a stupendous failure.
So we need laws to stop Americans from listening to conservatives (even better, laws taking conservatives off the air) that also compel Americans to listen to liberals. And wouldn't you know it--we're hearing some on Capitol Hill threatening to offer legislation that comes perilously close to those goals. Everybody needs an Arbitron-like diary in which they record their political viewing/listening (subject to government inspection, of course) and anyone who spends "too much" time watching Hannity risks a fine, unless they spend a required amount of time watching Olbermann. Yeah, that'll take care of the "climate of hate."
William F. Buckley, Jr. once said (parahrasing): "Liberals will always claim to defend to the death your right to disagree with them. But they're always astonished that anybody would."
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
I am rather wary of endorsing the concept of incitement because as I've stated before, I think people need to be held accountable for their own actions, and I don't believe the actions by politicians in question are really very inciting at all. But as you say, this point has been disagreed upon for the last 5 pages or so, no need to replow it.
More to your second point, you're right that it can't hurt to start applying a higher standard I suppose. But it hurts no less today than it did last week at this time. Anyone jumping on the "Can't we all just get along?" bandwagon seems like a pretty big opportunist to me.
For example, Joe Scarborough this morning said that he believed there was no connection between rhetoric and the shooting (good) but that it needed to serve as a wakeup call. (What?) I don't think you can really disassociate the two like that.
Or take the folks at No Labels, the new moderate group.
Why can't we just stop with "It's a real tragedy."?
I am rather wary of endorsing the concept of incitement because as I've stated before, I think people need to be held accountable for their own actions, and I don't believe the actions by politicians in question are really very inciting at all. But as you say, this point has been disagreed upon for the last 5 pages or so, no need to replow it.
More to your second point, you're right that it can't hurt to start applying a higher standard I suppose. But it hurts no less today than it did last week at this time. Anyone jumping on the "Can't we all just get along?" bandwagon seems like a pretty big opportunist to me.
For example, Joe Scarborough this morning said that he believed there was no connection between rhetoric and the shooting (good) but that it needed to serve as a wakeup call. (What?) I don't think you can really disassociate the two like that.
Or take the folks at No Labels, the new moderate group.
Why can't we just stop with "It's a real tragedy."?
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
What it needs to be a wake up call for is the amount of violence like this in this country. That's why I think Maddow did the best job. She covered the story but also pointed out all the other incidents like this one across the US that didn't get noticed because a Congresswoman wasn't involved.
It was a sobering list she went through.
What it needs to be a wake up call for is the amount of violence like this in this country. That's why I think Maddow did the best job. She covered the story but also pointed out all the other incidents like this one across the US that didn't get noticed because a Congresswoman wasn't involved.
It was a sobering list she went through.
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
One would expect, in this "climate of hate," with constant references to shooting symbols and language, that we would have more of these incidents, no? And yet we don't. Faulty theory?
We used to have a democrat congressman in Phoenix named Ann Kirkpatrick. She was swept out of office in November. Her opponant used video of her walking out of her own townhall meeting because some senior citizens had the temerity to show up and question her closely about her voting record. Who was it who said: "The people have spoken, the bastiches."
One would expect, in this "climate of hate," with constant references to shooting symbols and language, that we would have more of these incidents, no? And yet we don't. Faulty theory?
We used to have a democrat congressman in Phoenix named Ann Kirkpatrick. She was swept out of office in November. Her opponant used video of her walking out of her own townhall meeting because some senior citizens had the temerity to show up and question her closely about her voting record. Who was it who said: "The people have spoken, the bastiches."
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
I agree with all those who say he is crazy and I also agree that we really don't know what made him do this. But I do believe it is possible that all of the violent rhetoric and imagery could have influenced him. The probability may be low but if it could possbly contribute to something like this, it should be condemned, especially when it comes from politicians on the national level or influential media types.
As to Kepler's point, I don't see much changing unless the media leads the way in condemning this kind of stuff but I believe that they are scared as well. Imagine if a NYT reporter called out Sarah Palin for putting the scopes on the 20 districts, including Gifford's. They would have been accused of having liberal media bias and attacking the right, not to mention supressing free speech. We need to have an honest discussion about where most of this is coming from before we can even attempt to fix it.
I agree with all those who say he is crazy and I also agree that we really don't know what made him do this. But I do believe it is possible that all of the violent rhetoric and imagery could have influenced him. The probability may be low but if it could possbly contribute to something like this, it should be condemned, especially when it comes from politicians on the national level or influential media types.
As to Kepler's point, I don't see much changing unless the media leads the way in condemning this kind of stuff but I believe that they are scared as well. Imagine if a NYT reporter called out Sarah Palin for putting the scopes on the 20 districts, including Gifford's. They would have been accused of having liberal media bias and attacking the right, not to mention supressing free speech. We need to have an honest discussion about where most of this is coming from before we can even attempt to fix it.
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
I think we have way too many of these incidents:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/rachel-maddow-arizona-shooting_n_807212.html
I think we have way too many of these incidents:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/11/rachel-maddow-arizona-shooting_n_807212.html
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
Is someone an opportunist when they ask after a tragedy for us to look into our hearts and examine what is important?
We should willing to risk being called an opportunist to call for a more civil public discourse. Ask people to restore some level of sensation to what has become numb -- that we can wink at violence with no harm and no foul. Call all the fouls from now on, and long after this tragedy has been forgotten by all but the people whose lives have been wrecked, we'll have a more gracious public square. This horrible event does put most people in a frame of mind where they are more apt to reexamine their own actions. And you oppose that why? Because some people might misinterpret that moment of thoughtfulness as political? I call bunk. Conscience is not an attractive nuisance.
We'll also have a stronger democracy where the better ideas will win more often since they will now be able to compete under clear skies rather than within the dark emotional clouds of extremist rhetoric. Since we all believe our ideas are the stronger ones, we should all want that even if only out of purely partisan motives.
Is someone an opportunist when they ask after a tragedy for us to look into our hearts and examine what is important?
We should willing to risk being called an opportunist to call for a more civil public discourse. Ask people to restore some level of sensation to what has become numb -- that we can wink at violence with no harm and no foul. Call all the fouls from now on, and long after this tragedy has been forgotten by all but the people whose lives have been wrecked, we'll have a more gracious public square. This horrible event does put most people in a frame of mind where they are more apt to reexamine their own actions. And you oppose that why? Because some people might misinterpret that moment of thoughtfulness as political? I call bunk. Conscience is not an attractive nuisance.
We'll also have a stronger democracy where the better ideas will win more often since they will now be able to compete under clear skies rather than within the dark emotional clouds of extremist rhetoric. Since we all believe our ideas are the stronger ones, we should all want that even if only out of purely partisan motives.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt
This is exactly what I was referring to below. Thanks for the link.
This is exactly what I was referring to below. Thanks for the link.