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Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
You're comparing what an anonomous poster writes on Daily Kos to what the potential Vice President of the United States puts on her website. That was one of the points of the blog that I linked to. The left is not without fault but far more of this stuff comes from the right.
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Got it. You've mastered all the equivocations. So when Kerry joked with Maher about shooting Bush that was humor? And not to be taken seriously? And not an incitement to violence? And not part of the "climate of hate?" And when the president talked about "punishing our enemies" and quoting from "The Untouchables," he was just making a point? And similarly not inciting violence?

Kos allowed it to appear didn't he? Didn't condemn it. Didn't offer any lectures about keeping the debate on a higher plane. Thus, he approved of it.

The fact that these images and language are used all the time, and have been forever, is evidently not a defense against this slander. I'm just astonished that presumably college educated people think Sarah Palin is responsible for the Tucson shooting. Just like Limbauh was for Ok City. This is meretricious nonsense
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

HEY HEY HEY!!! Not exactly work safe content.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

Didn't say the left was perfect but if were talking about national figures in media and politics, the right is way ahead.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

dxmnkd316 said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying with 100% certainty a C&C permit holder would have stopped anything. I'm simply saying it's a possibility. Armed citizens aren't a guarantee to stop a **** thing. Hell, I don't even disagree that they could have been shot by the cops or could have hit a another civilian. I'm just saying there IS a real possibility he could have.
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Don't get ME wrong, I wasn't busting your chops. I'm just weary of that particular argument: that only good things can happen if citizens start blasting away. Believe me, if someone could have gotten a shot off, I would have prayed that it hit Loughner right between the antlers. And it certainly is possible that a gun toting Arizonan could have saved us a lot of misery.

We heard the same argument about Virginia Tech, if only some of those students had been armed. . . Again, maybe. But assuming a student could have gotten to his piece (Cho certainly would have noticed, and directed his fire at that kid) and gotten off a round or two, it's possible (and certainly desireable) that they would have hit Cho. It's just that in a situation where there's shooting and kids diving and running around in terror, that our would be hero might have missed. That's all. I can't put a percentage on either outcome. However, the gun people never even consider it.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
You're comparing what an anonomous poster writes on Daily Kos to what the potential Vice President of the United States puts on her website.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I loathe Palin as much as anyone here, but I don't believe her gun rhetoric is advocacy of personal violence in any way. Her rhetoric is carefully crafted with two purposes. (1) Sound tough. You have to do everything in your power to sound like a tough guy to appeal to the third of the population that never grew beyond adolescence. It's even more important for Palin because she's a woman, and her base loves a woman who projects "strength" (even if the rest of us see it's a Potemkin Village). (2) Argot. For various demographic reasons Palin has tons of gun nut supporters. Fetishizing guns is normal for that group the way fetishizing hockey is for us. They also get off on the knowledge that people outside the gun community are creeped out by it. It's classic oppositional identity formation -- "this is our tree house -- I'm one of you. Let's make wisecracks about the Other."

Every politician deploys both of these strategies. It's not about personal violence. There's certainly an allusion to the validity of armed revolt in it because of this particular group's misreading of the Constitution and history, but again they would be horrified if some nutbar actually took it into his head to use a weapon.

As a Noted Adulterer said, that dog won't hunt. Palin's a dope, but she's not knowingly encouraging psychotics. (I don't think she even liked Cheney.)
 
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
Didn't say the left was perfect but if were talking about national figures in media and politics, the right is way ahead.
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We're makling progress: "the left isn't perfect." And you've got independent studies to back up your claims about the right? Or are you just blathering your prejudices, like that imbecile sheriff in Pima County?
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
Didn't say the left was perfect but if were talking about national figures in media and politics, the right is way ahead.
Click to expand...

Here is a lovely quote from Paul Kanjorski

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a **** crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

This must be another example of toning it down
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

dxmnkd316 said:
Or he could have shot the shooter. Again, potato potahto
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So your best case scenario is that he shoots the shooter...when the shooter was instead brought to justice.

And your worst case scenario is that he shoots an innocent.

And that range of outcomes is a good deal...how?
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

Kepler said:
I am honestly completely lost and I have no idea what you're talking about. It's probably my fault but would you not be metaphorical for a moment and just be plain? I don't even know what question we were supposed to be either begging or not.
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See? Common ground. I've learned when you start talking about irony (just about your favorite device) that I need to head for the hills. To my linear way of thinking it's a simple premise--either you think there's enough examples, on both sides, of unfortunate speech or you don't. To argue the latter is to seriously beg the question and establish a certain lack of seriousness about solving the "problem."

I don't believe and haven't claimed, that YOU have begged this question. Can't say the same for all the Mousketeers who've joined the Sheriff Dipstick fan club.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

"I'm pretty sure I loathe Palin as much as anyone here, but I don't believe her gun rhetoric is advocacy of personal violence in any way. Her rhetoric is carefully crafted with two purposes. (1) Sound tough. You have to do everything in your power to sound like a tough guy to appeal to the third of the population that never grew beyond adolescence. It's even more important for Palin because she's a woman, and her base loves a woman who projects "strength" (even if the rest of us see it's a Potemkin Village). (2) Argot. For various demographic reasons Palin has tons of gun nut supporters. Fetishizing guns is normal for that group the way fetishizing hockey is for us. They also get off on the knowledge that people outside the gun community are creeped out by it. It's classic oppositional identity formation -- "this is our tree house -- I'm one of you. Let's make wisecracks about the Other."

Every politician deploys both of these strategies. It's not about personal violence. There's certainly an allusion to the validity of armed revolt in it because of this particular group's misreading of the Constitution and history, but again they would be horrified if some nutbar actually took it into his head to use a weapon."

Agree with almost all of that but when you are talking guns it ups the ante. If there is even a small chance that her putting out that kind of imagery could contribute to setting off a nutcase it should be avoided. Especially when it comes from someone who could be President. And when Palin put it out tensions were very high after the health care debate and Congresswoman Giffords glass door had just been smashed in. She herself says, back at that time in this interview, that she was not happy that Palin had that out there. Palin's motives may be questionable but at a minimum it was irresponsible.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_n...terview-with-rep-giffords-discussing-violence
 
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

5mn_Major said:
So your best case scenario is that he shoots the shooter...when the shooter was instead brought to justice.

And your worst case scenario is that he shoots an innocent.

And that range of outcomes is a good deal...how?
Click to expand...

Seriously? Are you this dense? The point of shooting the shooter would be to prevent him from shooting more people. Maybe instead of wounding 19, he wounds 10. The outcomes you present aren't even close to being the only two. I mean, would you really rather have a 20 victims with a shooter "brought to justice" than 5 victims and a shooter with a hole in his head? I know which one I'm choosing.

Anyways though, I'm more with Old Pio on this one, more guns in this situation wouldn't have solved much.
 
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

Old Pio said:
See? Common ground. I've learned when you start talking about irony (just about your favorite device) that I need to head for the hills. To my linear way of thinking it's a simple premise--either you think there's enough examples, on both sides, of unfortunate speech or you don't. To argue the latter is to seriously beg the question and establish a certain lack of seriousness about solving the "problem."

I don't believe and haven't claimed, that YOU have begged this question. Can't say the same for all the Mousketeers who've joined the Sheriff Dipstick fan club.
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I thought it was kind of ironic that it looked like you were question begging by changing the subject to question begging. As for irony -- I guess none of us can escape the third, "ironic" age of civilization.

My point is I DON'T CARE whether both sides have been equally guilty -- time keeps on slippin' into the future, and that's where we should spend our energy now.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
Agree with almost all of that but when you are talking guns it ups the ante. If there is even a small chance that her putting out that kind of imagery could contribute to setting off a nutcase it should be avoided. Especially when it comes from someone who could be President. And when Palin put it out tensions were very high after the health care debate and Congresswoman Giffords glass door had just been smashed in. She herself says, back at that time in this interview, that she was not happy that Palin had that out there. Palin's motives may be questionable but at a minimum it was irresponsible.

http://openchannel.msnbc.msn.com/_n...terview-with-rep-giffords-discussing-violence
Click to expand...

How do you quantify "even a small chance?" And if you're suggesting something other than volunarily "toning it down," how do you enforce it. And more importantly, who enforces it?

Quoting that from Ms Giffords doesn't mean that she's right. She was in the middle of a very tough campaign, trying very hard to hold on to her seat. By all accounts she's a nice person, has been grievously wounded, didn't deserve it, but isn't a saint. She's quite capable of saying something to MSNBC designed to get her voters fired up and out to the polls. That's what campaigns are all about. Let's not even hint that what she said was predictive. Or proves this ex post facto nonsense about Sarah Palin.

Despite all the raised eyebrows and throat clearing, no body has established that Loughner could take the time from worshipping at his backyard Santeria shrine (or was it Palo Mayombe?) to watch Fox or MSNBC or C-SPAN.
 
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

walrus said:
Here is a lovely quote from Paul Kanjorski

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a **** crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

This must be another example of toning it down
Click to expand...

Who? For which party was he the VP candidate? On which cable channel does he get a platform?
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

trucker said:
Palin's motives may be questionable but at a minimum it was irresponsible.
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Whether it was or not before, it certainly would be now. I pity da fool who runs that sort of attack campaign in the forseeable future. Palin's handlers realize this -- they took the site down the minute the news hit.

Obama will be speaking in Tucson Wednesday. Like any president after a tragedy, he'll stress our common humanity and mourn the victims. Hopefully everybody will take the night off from ticky-tacky crap. We can be one country for a couple hours at least. The fights will all still be there in the morning.
 
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Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

walrus said:
Here is a lovely quote from Paul Kanjorski

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a **** crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."

This must be another example of toning it down
Click to expand...

It is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.
--Paul Kanjorski (Today)
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

Kepler said:
I thought it was kind of ironic that it looked like you were question begging by changing the subject to question begging. As for irony -- I guess none of us can escape the third, "ironic" age of civilization.

My point is I DON'T CARE whether both sides have been equally guilty -- time keeps on slippin' into the future, and that's where we should spend our energy now.
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True that. I don't agree that we have a "problem," at least not in the context that has been so deliberately politicized. But if we do, we have no chance of solving it if we begin by blaming one side. Pretty good negotiating position if you're Hitler at Munich and the Czechs weren't even invited to participate, but not a good way to improve the level of dialogue here.
 
Re: Arizona Congressman Gabrielle Giffords Apparantly Survives Assassination Attempt

WeWantMore said:
It is incumbent on all Americans to create an atmosphere of civility and respect in which political discourse can flow freely, without fear of violent confrontation.
--Paul Kanjorski (Today)
Click to expand...

That makes him a meathead hypocrite. It doesn't change the validity of the statement.
 
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