Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

[fangers]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

No. The people responsible for this debacle are all gone, including the 2 common denominators to football and hockey, the AD and Pres., so why would this effect hockey? I think people are way over-blowing the situation as it relates to the University as a whole. There's no reason to penalize any of the current FB players, other student athletes or students for the transgressions of the enablers.

I don't disagree that is unfair to penalize the student/athletes when it was nothing they did - especially in cases like John Calipari where he can move from school to school, leaving just before sanctions/penalties come down. Unfortunately they are always the ones who suffer.

If you read my other posts in this thread you will see my feelings about the culture still being there and how that could impact recruit's thinking.

But the school has to be hit in the pocketbook because that's the only thing that gets thier attention - not sure exactly what form (grants withheld, fines, ???) but something has to happen.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

You still do not get it, do you? The reason there was a cover-up and the atrocities were allowed to continue is that the program grew too big to control. The decision was made to protrect the program rather than the kids.

That is a COMPLETE lack of institutional control and skewed values for which only the death penalty can remedy that culture. Contracts all have Force Majeur clauses in them. Cancelling a season will not be a problem. After no football for a year, and only a half-schedule of away games for the next year, people in the Happy Valley will start to get it.

I guess you didn't read everything else I've said on here. The "culture" is exactly why no one at Penn State EVER thought anything like this could even possibly happen. The values of integrity, hard work, and honesty that are preached cradle to grave at this school? THAT needs to be changed???

Joe Paterno failed the ideals he created and all of Penn State adopted. I know everyone wants blood for this. I understand that. I'm looking forward to Sandusky's sentencing, just to hear the word(s) "Rockview" or "Camp Hill" mentioned - since they are the two worst-criminals-in-the-Commonwealth-prisons.

I get the Death Penalty calls. However, this is unchartered territory for the NCAA, either way. There was certainly no competitive gains made over the course of this mess. Do they go after the program literally for the sins of the father?

That's where I fail to see the argument. FOUR MEN (that we know of) are solely responsible for this entire matter. Not one player, not one secretary, not one equipment manager have anything to do with this. It goes back to the counter argument, if it were Professor Sandusky and Dean Paterno, would Penn State (or the NCAA) be shutting down the English Department after cleaning house of all those that were involved???

Pardon me and any of my fellow Penn Staters for being defensive. We're in denial, in shock, and feeling betrayed. Sorry if we can't grasp how punishing people who had nothing to do with these attrocities seems like a just punishment...

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

No. The people responsible for this debacle are all gone, including the 2 common denominators to football and hockey, the AD and Pres., so why would this effect hockey? I think people are way over-blowing the situation as it relates to the University as a whole. There's no reason to penalize any of the current FB players, other student athletes or students for the transgressions of the enablers.

Yes and no. It all depends on what happens when the settlements to the vicitims start to get paid. Moreover, it depends on how much gets paid out in those settlements. That could have a huge affect on the entire University. But we won't know that for quite a long time.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

I get the Death Penalty calls. However, this is unchartered territory for the NCAA, either way. There was certainly no competitive gains made over the course of this mess.

Definitely not true. If PSU had reported these crimes properly back in 1998 or 2002, PSU football certainly would have suffered. The administration (at the football, athletics, and university level) explicitly chose not to report it so that the football team would remain as competitive as possible. That is a competitive gain compared to where they should have been had they acted properly.

It goes back to the counter argument, if it were Professor Sandusky and Dean Paterno, would Penn State (or the NCAA) be shutting down the English Department after cleaning house of all those that were involved???

Of course not - but PSU did not join the National Collegiate English Association which has explicit bylaws regarding ethical conduct by the English Department and Institutional Control of the English Department. By joining the NCAA, PSU made a pledge to operate its athletic department in a certain way, and then proceeded to knowingly and callously violate the bejeezus out of it.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

Spydey's posts here are the EXACT reason why something needs to happen. Penn State still doesn't get it. Has the statue of the child rape condoner been melted down yet?

 

[UML]

These people will never get it.

You still do not get it, do you? The reason there was a cover-up and the atrocities were allowed to continue is that the program grew too big to control. The decision was made to protrect the program rather than the kids.

That is a COMPLETE lack of institutional control and skewed values for which only the death penalty can remedy that culture. Contracts all have Force Majeur clauses in them. Cancelling a season will not be a problem. After no football for a year, and only a half-schedule of away games for the next year, people in the Happy Valley will start to get it.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

I get the Death Penalty calls. However, this is unchartered territory for the NCAA, either way. There was certainly no competitive gains made over the course of this mess. Do they go after the program literally for the sins of the father?

That's where I fail to see the argument. FOUR MEN (that we know of) are solely responsible for this entire matter. Not one player, not one secretary, not one equipment manager have anything to do with this. It goes back to the counter argument, if it were Professor Sandusky and Dean Paterno, would Penn State (or the NCAA) be shutting down the English Department after cleaning house of all those that were involved???

I agree. This whole "culture" discussion is far too subjective. Based on the Trustee's action in firing Paterno, far before this report was issued, tells me the Trustees understood the significance of what was going on. I think this culture discussion is more directed towards John Q football fan, who will never admit Paterno did anything wrong. John Q is 45 and lives in his parent's basement or is 19 and lives in the dorm, the death penalty hurts them mentally, but why hurt the innocent players and university students. The ones who need to be punished are being punished, let's just stop there. It isn't like post scandal PSU leaders are trying to get away with something.

 

[RSTuthill]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

I guess you didn't read everything else I've said on here. The "culture" is exactly why no one at Penn State EVER thought anything like this could even possibly happen. The values of integrity, hard work, and honesty that are preached cradle to grave at this school? THAT needs to be changed???

Nope, now they just need to walk the walk, rather than just talk the talk. And drop the holier than thou attitude of exceptionalism that prevailed long before this happened. Further, require the AD and FB head coach to take direction from the university President.

 

[J.D.]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

Just a reminder that the question posed is "any chance" and "impact" (not "monumental impact", etc.)

So, the answer is yes. There is a "chance" that this has even the slightest impact on hockey.

 

[fangers]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

I agree. This whole "culture" discussion is far too subjective. Based on the Trustee's action in firing Paterno, far before this report was issued, tells me the Trustees understood the significance of what was going on. I think this culture discussion is more directed towards John Q football fan, who will never admit Paterno did anything wrong. John Q is 45 and lives in his parent's basement or is 19 and lives in the dorm, the death penalty hurts them mentally, but why hurt the innocent players and university students. The ones who need to be punished are being punished, let's just stop there. It isn't like post scandal PSU leaders are trying to get away with something.

Disagree somewhat. The significance that the trustee's understood was they knew they had dropped the ball in letting these people have the uncontrolled power & influence that they did and if the didn't do something quickly it would reflect even worse on them.

And that John Q football fan makes up a huge majority of PSU alumni and fans, so I think you are over simplifying things.

 

[fangers]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

I guess you didn't read everything else I've said on here. The "culture" is exactly why no one at Penn State EVER thought anything like this could even possibly happen. The values of integrity, hard work, and honesty that are preached cradle to grave at this school? THAT needs to be changed???

No, what you describe are the ideals & values that the school/culture promoted - those are valid and should continue to be. But the behavior of that culture is what needs to change, that total belief that it could never happen, the "cult of Joe Pa" atmosphere that put one man above reproach, gave the one person and his small group in power so much control & power that people were too afraid to report something as hideous as this. It's not unlike what we've seen happen frequently in recent years with some of the leaders of mega-churches, Tressel at Ohio State (who also promoted some of those same values), and all the Catholic church abuse issues (obviously not the same scale, but the very same behavior of not addressing the issue for fear of the public response).

That's where I fail to see the argument. FOUR MEN (that we know of) are solely responsible for this entire matter. Not one player, not one secretary, not one equipment manager have anything to do with this. It goes back to the counter argument, if it were Professor Sandusky and Dean Paterno, would Penn State (or the NCAA) be shutting down the English Department after cleaning house of all those that were involved???

Again, it's about more than those four guys, you simply can't ignore the role the cult like atmospshere played in enabling thier behavior. There were other school employees who did not report this out of fear. And in an ideal world, the english department would be considered more important than the football program, but the english department wasn't what brought hundreds of millions of $$$ into school coffers, raised it from the little known state public school to a nationally recognized institution. So yes, it is different and would be treated differently.

You can't see it yet because you were part of that cult of Joe Pa.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

We will have to wait and see if the despicable conduct of PSU officials to shield their football program has any impact upon college hockey. However, it's clear that college hockey has not had any impact upon the behavior of PSU football program executives or PSU administrators.
About a decade ago coaches and officials at UVM discovered some really nasty hazing was taking place in their men's hockey program; bad behavior for sure but not remotely comparable to the serial pederasty at PSU.
UVM didn't fool around or look to avoid consequences. UVM didn't wait for the NCAA to impose sanctions. UVM cancelled their hockey season, immediately. Yeah, PSU apologists argue "money won't . . ., cash flow can't . . ., financial considerations prevent . . ." - but no amount of rationalizing or procrastination by PSU officials will restore Penn State's reputation. The University of Vermont's hockey program showed how to go about doing that.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

You can't see it yet because you were part of that cult of Joe Pa.

That is true. And I admitted that off the top.

But what I still don't understand, is what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty?

The victims -- the number 1 clear-cut top of the list -- should get the maximum "benefit" of anything that happens. How does not playing 12 to 24 football games help them, in any way, shape, or form? If anything I would argue that hurts them more, due to the amount of revenue that could be generated for donations to anti-abuse charities. Which is exactly what a lot of students and alums are pushing for if the team continues to play.

Everyone who is calling for the death penalty says that "the culture needs to be changed". I think it is safe to say the culture HAS changed. Quickly. The Board of Trustees is finally doing its job and Joe is dead. The patron saint has fallen from grace, much to the misguided joy of a LOT of Penn State haters.

The finiancial hit is coming. Penn State paid $6.5 million to be told how bad it screwed up. The civil damages are going to follow soon. The news is only going to get worse once Curley, Schultz, and hopefully Spanier face a jury.

What I hear is just a lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric that the University needs to be knocked down a peg. Do people honestly think we haven't been already?

Again, take the emotion out, and explain to me what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty? I am admittedly biased in this situation but I am sincerely trying to be logical in my argument in why not to do it.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

The patron saint has fallen from grace, much to the misguided joy of a LOT of Penn State haters.

An evil man, that condoned and enabled the rape of many children is gone from this world, how is that misguided joy? The world is better without that scum in it.

 

[pinch]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

An evil man, that condoned and enabled the rape of many children is gone from this world, how is that misguided joy? The world is better without that scum in it.

That sums it up for me

 

[fangers]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

That is true. And I admitted that off the top.

But what I still don't understand, is what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty?

The victims -- the number 1 clear-cut top of the list -- should get the maximum "benefit" of anything that happens. How does not playing 12 to 24 football games help them, in any way, shape, or form? If anything I would argue that hurts them more, due to the amount of revenue that could be generated for donations to anti-abuse charities. Which is exactly what a lot of students and alums are pushing for if the team continues to play.

Everyone who is calling for the death penalty says that "the culture needs to be changed". I think it is safe to say the culture HAS changed. Quickly. The Board of Trustees is finally doing its job and Joe is dead. The patron saint has fallen from grace, much to the misguided joy of a LOT of Penn State haters.

The finiancial hit is coming. Penn State paid $6.5 million to be told how bad it screwed up. The civil damages are going to follow soon. The news is only going to get worse once Curley, Schultz, and hopefully Spanier face a jury.

What I hear is just a lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric that the University needs to be knocked down a peg. Do people honestly think we haven't been already?

Again, take the emotion out, and explain to me what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty? I am admittedly biased in this situation but I am sincerely trying to be logical in my argument in why not to do it.

FWIW, I'm not one advocating for the death penalty. As the parent of an athlete who has been put through the ringer as the result of actions of alleged adults in charge, I'm the last one wanting to see the kids there now penalized. That's why I think the pain felt by the school needs to be more in terms of fines/monetary things.

My whole point about the culture needing to change is from the perspective of potential recruits looking to go there in the future. I do think that should be something that is considered when looking at PSU as an option. Every recruit has different criteria that is important to them, and each family will place different emphasis on different things - so for some, the culture change may not be as important as I think it should be. But I can assure you that there be plenty for whom it does matter.

How they react to Clery Act violations and the steps they take to ensure any & all crimes on campus are reported and not hidden (i.e. adhere to the Clery Act guidelines & beyond) going forward is critical IMO.

 

[Spydey629]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

An evil man, that condoned and enabled the rape of many children is gone from this world, how is that misguided joy? The world is better without that scum in it.

Between the call-in shows and message boards, I've heard more glee over the fact that Joe went down in flames than the circumstances of what brought down Joe down in general.

THAT I call misguided joy - taking pleasure in the downfall of the man and not caring at all about the people that were harmed in the actions that got him fired.

 

[Waite21]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

My whole point about the culture needing to change is from the perspective of potential recruits looking to go there in the future. I do think that should be something that is considered when looking at PSU as an option. Every recruit has different criteria that is important to them, and each family will place different emphasis on different things - so for some, the cuture change may not be as important as I think it should be. But I can assure you that there be plenty for whom it does matter.

You keep talking about how the "culture" needs to change.

May I ask what would have to happen in order to demonstrate to your complete satisfaction that the "culture" has changed?

For the record, I'm not a Penn State alumnus. My primary interest in Penn State athletics is the hope that some day I will be able to go up to State College and watch my alma mater's hockey team beat the stuffing out of the Nittany Lions.

But I do live in central Pennsylvania, which is undeniably Penn State country.

If you don't live in this area, I can tell you that for months on end now, the media have been hammering it into us how awful this whole thing was. Day after day, front-page articles are printed in the paper, with multi-page follow-ups inside, to remind us that Jerry Sandusky is the most reprehensible sort of human being imaginable, and that anyone who would have allowed this sort of thing to go on without reporting it to the police is hardly any less reprehensible. Day after day, at least five and often ten or more minutes of each 30-minute TV newscast are devoted to reminding us about the same things.

If that hasn't been enough to convince every single Penn State employee that they must never allow such a thing to happen again, I don't think the cancellation of a football season would be enough, either.

 

[Dirty Bottles]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

That is true. And I admitted that off the top.

But what I still don't understand, is what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty?

The victims -- the number 1 clear-cut top of the list -- should get the maximum "benefit" of anything that happens. How does not playing 12 to 24 football games help them, in any way, shape, or form? If anything I would argue that hurts them more, due to the amount of revenue that could be generated for donations to anti-abuse charities. Which is exactly what a lot of students and alums are pushing for if the team continues to play.

Everyone who is calling for the death penalty says that "the culture needs to be changed". I think it is safe to say the culture HAS changed. Quickly. The Board of Trustees is finally doing its job and Joe is dead. The patron saint has fallen from grace, much to the misguided joy of a LOT of Penn State haters.

The finiancial hit is coming. Penn State paid $6.5 million to be told how bad it screwed up. The civil damages are going to follow soon. The news is only going to get worse once Curley, Schultz, and hopefully Spanier face a jury.

What I hear is just a lot of emotionally-charged rhetoric that the University needs to be knocked down a peg. Do people honestly think we haven't been already?

Again, take the emotion out, and explain to me what "good" comes from giving the football team the death penalty? I am admittedly biased in this situation but I am sincerely trying to be logical in my argument in why not to do it.

Punishment doesn't have to produce "good" to be right and just. PSU demonstrated a shocking lack of institutional control and you think the very vehicle, the cash cow, that DROVE the lack of institutional control ought to walk away unscathed? wow. The NCAA needs to drop the hammer on them. Players in the program today should be allowed to transfer without sitting out a year.

 

[Patman]

Re: Any chance the Penn State scandal has an impact on hockey?

An evil man, that condoned and enabled the rape of many children is gone from this world, how is that misguided joy? The world is better without that scum in it.

no, you want blood and since it won't be exacted upon those who were participants you feel its necessary to exact it upon something visible and something scarring in order to serve as a memorial of those who don't do what is proper.

At least admit that. it has nothing to do with the people themselves, the program itself, etc. You want to hold these guys as an example and you want to hold them out in order so that you feel like proper justice and revenge has been meted out. You feel that there is an insufficient culpability and somehow the whole group is responsible.

There's a point where you get beyond holding the structures responsible and you get into collective punishment. I get the feeling you want their society to be punished.