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Antiwork

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The Sicatoka said:
But you don't have to have them to end up pretty well off if you do the work.
Two of the wealthiest North Dakotans (Forbes 400) are farm kids who came from literally the dirt.


*Gary Tharaldson (Dasey, ND; Tharaldson Hospitality), Michael Chambers (Carrington, ND; Aldevron, just sold for $9.6 billion)
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Yea, anyone can win the lottery. That's just two examples. Forgive me for not really giving them the "hard work" credit. I've worked long enough to see the "work" anyone manager or above actually does. They make a lot of money off of the hard work of other people- generally making decisions based on the outcomes of the hard work.
 
The Sicatoka said:
But you don't have to have them to end up pretty well off if you do the work.
Two of the wealthiest North Dakotans (Forbes 400) are farm kids who came from literally the dirt.


*Gary Tharaldson (Dasey, ND; Tharaldson Hospitality), Michael Chambers (Carrington, ND; Aldevron, just sold for $9.6 billion)
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Congrats on finding two statistical anomalies (I'm taking your word for it.) But they are still just that. You should do a tour of the US where you tell poor people to simply work harder, think of all the lives you could change.
 
The US now ranks 27 in social mobility out of 82 nations. Our laissez faire system is an impediment to mobility and leaves each generation trapped in the economic caste of its parents.

The US has cratered in social mobility ever since we reversed extractive taxation on the wealthy. Meanwhile, the nations with the greatest mobility have the highest tax rates on the rich.

That's how you do it. It's proven. It's how we did it in the period between 1932 and 1980. The United States is the most successful experiment in "socialism" in history, and what destroyed the American middle class and ended the American Dream was the rightwing reaction that began with Reagan.
 
The Sicatoka said:
But you don't have to have them to end up pretty well off if you do the work.
Two of the wealthiest North Dakotans (Forbes 400) are farm kids who came from literally the dirt.


*Gary Tharaldson (Dasey, ND; Tharaldson Hospitality), Michael Chambers (Carrington, ND; Aldevron, just sold for $9.6 billion)
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I’m sure having acres of nutrient rich farm land from the family had nothing to do with their success…
 
MichVandal said:
Seems that this opinion should mean that you should not ***** about not being able to find labor to fill your needs. So far, you have not really posted anything about lack of labor- but if you can't find workers, based on this opinion- that's just the way it is.

Besides questioning laboring so much to fill the pockets of people way above them, this pandemic has also done a real job at resetting what people's realistic expectations of life really are. Tiny homes, working out of a van, living in a remote area for work, etc. Seeing the struggle to fill jobs, that adjustment seems pretty clear to me.

Which means that we should expect business owners to complain about lazy people. A lot.
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He already pays his employees $15+/hr. Duh.
 
MichVandal said:
Seems that this opinion should mean that you should not ***** about not being able to find labor to fill your needs. So far, you have not really posted anything about lack of labor- but if you can't find workers, based on this opinion- that's just the way it is.

Besides questioning laboring so much to fill the pockets of people way above them, this pandemic has also done a real job at resetting what people's realistic expectations of life really are. Tiny homes, working out of a van, living in a remote area for work, etc. Seeing the struggle to fill jobs, that adjustment seems pretty clear to me.

Which means that we should expect business owners to complain about lazy people. A lot.
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Business owners would be delighted. if all employees worked around the clock, seven days a week and for the same salary that they have now.
 
psych said:
He already pays his employees $15+/hr. Duh.
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I do not have an employee that makes less than $20/hr.

Is that out of the goodness of my heart? Of course not. If I could get by with $5.00/hr I'd do so in a heartbeat. Employee wages are simply a cost to me, and if the costs are lower, it's good for my business.
 
SJHovey said:
I do not have an employee that makes less than $20/hr.

Is that out of the goodness of my heart? Of course not. If I could get by with $5.00/hr I'd do so in a heartbeat. Employee wages are simply a cost to me, and if the costs are lower, it's good for my business.
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And that mindset is unethical, because it uses human beings as means for a non-human being end (money).

It's not your fawt, it's the way of our world and it is celebrated as a virtue and there is a myth it serves the Greater Good (just like all the other anti-human systems have had), but we won't be a civilized species until we get past it.
 
Kepler said:
The weird psychology thing is while you aren't concerned about billionaires you are very concerned that nobody gets over on you. Why should people who don't work get a UBI? Why should people who make minimum wage get a living wage? Why should we interfere with the market when it sets prices for labor?

This paranoia that someone somewhere is getting something for nothing is the hallmark of the Conservative Mind. Contrary to your explanation for why you don't afflict the comfortable, you are very concerned when people try to comfort the afflicted. You come across as if being selfish is the normal mode of human behavior -- it isn't, it's weird. People try to help each other. When you say "what the rich have is their business, but what the poor have is MY business," you are being the archetypical conservative.
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I'm not concerned about people "getting over on me."

With respect to UBI, I don't believe paying people to do nothing is a good or smart allocation of resources. If you pay people to do nothing, people will do nothing.

We actually need people to work in this country, in this world. We collectively benefit by that.

With respect to the minimum wage, I have always believed that we need low paying, entry level jobs. They serve a purpose. They teach people what it means to be an employee, and they are jobs that an employer can afford to offer.

My very first job, outside of mowing yards, was when I was a kid and was hired to wash dishes at a local steakhouse. Minimum wage, which as I recall was barely $2/hr. I remember that I'd work maybe a six hour shift and barely make more than $10.

Now, could I live on that? Of course not. I never expected to. I didn't stand there, scalding my hands, thinking that I'd found my life's work, now all I need to do is find a wife and start a family.

The reason I took that job was so that when it came time to apply for the next job, a higher paying job, I had something to show the future employer.

Does that job exist if the restaurant owner had to pay me enough money to cover food, shelter, clothing and all of the other expenses necessary to be a "livable wage?" No chance. But we both benefited. He got his dishes cleaned and I gained experience.
 
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SJHovey said:
If you pay people to do nothing, people will do nothing.
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No, but people WON'T do something they hate for peanuts. So we have to reward people for doing terrible jobs because it's no longer either that or starve.

Right now employers have the benefit of the pure coercion of hunger and pain at their disposal. That is no different from when the warlord marches into town and says "you're all working for me now, or you die."

UBI separates work from perishing. That means people who hire labor now have to make it worth their while. If you want somebody to clean up your trash you are going to have to pay them quite a lot because it is a miserable job.

Some people want to sit on their couch and play games all day? Fine. Let them. Open up the world for the people who want more for their lives. They'll get paid even more if that job has some utility to an employer or to society if it's a government job. But the gun cocked at our heads will be unloaded.

Conservatives in the past have made your exact argument to oppose social security and unemployment and minimum wage and payments during COVID. Your argument does not come from a rational model of economics it comes from an irrational and highly moralistic (and wrong to boot) determination of the depravity of man.
 
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People need to work, but there is more to life than work and people shouldn't live to work. A majority do not, but there is a subset of people who view work as their sole raison d'etre and that is neither normal, nor healthy. The fact that these people tend to rise into management roles because the c-suite considers them model employees regardless of their actual managerial abilities can make the corporate life experience that much worse.

"Work smarter, not harder" is a cliche, but it's one the "live to work" faction should consider.
 
SJHovey said:
We actually need people to work in this country, in this world. We collectively benefit by that.
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Considering how many jobs have been moved off shore, it seems that many large corporations don't actually understand that.

That, and we should do a better job reducing barriers that do prevent people from working jobs other than ones that don't actually make a living wage. While hte idea of a cheap min-wage is a good concept for a teenager, it's a horrible one for a person who had no opportunities to get a good education, and has to support their family on that min-wage job. Especially since most of those jobs treat the person as a commodity vs a real person.

Maybe if we REALLY had universal health care, where your kids could be taken care of while both parents worked min-wage jobs to put food on the table- that would not be quite as bad. But we don't. And thanks to "fairness" people like yourself, we may never get there. It's funny that one of the biggest hurdles to accept really low paying jobs is healthcare, but the people who want low paying jobs to exist also don't want universal healthcare.

BTW, making sure everyone has a job means that everyone is buying more *stuff*. Without *stuff* bought, there would be no jobs. And I'm betting that post-pandemic, people took a look at the *stuff* list, and saw that keeping up with the neighbors and FOMO is BS.
 
I'd like to see a 4 day work week combined with a much higher minimum wage, but you know, 6-7 ultra-rich people are against that...
 
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