Antiwork

[Kepler]

So burning all two weeks of your "unscheduled" time off in Jan/Feb because you wanted to go drinking on a Fri/Sat despite knowing that you need to work on Sat/Sun is the employer's fault?

That's what I mean when I say that there isn't the slightest hint of work ethic/responsibility here... If an employer was that careless, they would go under. It's being an adult and claiming responsibility for your actions... People can plan in advance (as long as there are time off slots available. Each shift can only have so many people scheduled off in advance). You just need to arrange it on the previous work day.

Again, I'm sorry that people can't plan behavior like this in advance.

That is what is the major issue with my work deal. It's people who are just irresponsible about life in general.

40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.

 

[Jimjamesak]

40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.

Yup, the American default is “they must lying and trying to game the system.”

 

[RaceBoarder]

40 years of tireless brainwashing to get a reasonably intelligent person to the point where this is his go to.

The Kochs do know marketing, I'll give them that.

I don't follow you here Kep.

So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?

 

[Kepler]

Yup, the American default is “they must lying and trying to game the system.”

This isn't an accident. It's been the message drummed into heads for decades by the people who squeeze workers. Saint Ronnie didn't even start it, he just perfected it. And the boobs loved him for it because everybody knows that one person who is an actual scoundrel. With that person thrust into the Derps' mind the Right was able to destroy all workers' rights.

 

[RaceBoarder]

This isn't an accident. It's been the message drummed into heads for decades by the people who squeeze workers. Saint Ronnie didn't even start it, he just perfected it. And the boobs loved him for it because everybody knows that one person who is an actual scoundrel. With that person thrust into the Derps' mind the Right was able to destroy all workers' rights.

I suppose.

We're starting to see "grunt work" wages increase towards a point to where people will actually WANT to come in and do them. But reaching that is still a long ways off.

So this is what we have to do to keep the wheels on the bus so to speak. Cause without it "grunt work" doesn't get done and everything collapses.

 

[Jimjamesak]

I don't follow you here Kep.

So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?

The fact that you’re equating “sick day” with “I went out drinking” instead of “I’m sick” says yes, you are a pawn.

 

[SJHovey]

My government employer separates sick and vacation time.

The benefit is that there's no cap on accrued sick leave. So if you're young and healthy you can keep accruing it and then if you get hit with a major illness, or pregnancy, or whatever, you'll have the sick time saved up to use without dipping into your vacation time.

Extra benefit is that your sick leave balance at retirement can be converted into health care premiums, which can cover your insurance till Medicare kicks in if you retire before 65.

oh, the other real benefit is that unused vacation time is paid out in full upon leaving state employment. If you had merged PTO, no way that pay out happens.

Nothing prevents a company that has merged sick leave and vacation into PTO from doing those things. I could let employees accrue an uncapped amount of PTO, let them accrue and carry over no PTO, or anything in between. I can also pay it all out upon termination of employment.

 

[RaceBoarder]

The fact that you’re equating “sick day” with “I went out drinking” instead of “I’m sick” says yes, you are a pawn.

Ok, let me clairify:

We don't have "sick days" in the sense that others do. It's all either PTO (80 hours/2 weeks for everyone. Can be scheduled or unscheduled) or Vacation (varies. 40-120 hours/1-3 weeks. Only scheduled in advance).

So you guys believe that it's ok for a worker to openly decide that they just don't feel like working for whatever reason and that they don't need to follow through/fullfil their responsibilities?

Edit: I do wish there was more flexibility when it came to actually getting sick or injured. I'd have a third category for that.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Ok, let me clairify:

We don't have "sick days" in the sense that others do. It's all either PTO (80 hours/2 weeks for everyone. Can be scheduled or unscheduled) or Vacation (varies. 40-120 hours/1-3 weeks. Only scheduled in advance).

So you guys believe that it's ok for a worker to openly decide that they just don't feel like working for whatever reason and that they don't need to follow through/fullfil their responsibilities?

Edit: I do wish there was more flexibility when it came to actually getting sick or injured. I'd have a third category for that.

What the hell are you talking about? If you're sick then yeah, you should be able to be able to decide "I'm sick" and stay home. And your employer should encourage that. It helps keep people healthy and makes sure your workers are healthy and can rest, recover, and return to work sooner.

We're not talking about deciding to just not work because you're hungover or lazy. This is exactly the same nonsense that the GOP uses to try and pass voter ID laws. People abusing sick time is an insanely scarce problem relative to the population as a whole.

 

[unofan]

That's a really nice retention tool.

But it's still a gun to your head. There should be no limit on sick leave. You should not "accrue" it, it simply is -- 100% compensation for the duration. A sick person is sick, pay them while they get better. If that gives a business the sad, apply for relief. If that gives a taxpayer the sad, fuck you sociopath.

Stop running the country for the benefit of the least empathetic. Those people aren't "fiscally conservative." They're mentally and morally deficient.

The only change I'd make is that you shouldn't start out at 0 for sick leave. But I mean, until you hit something like 400 hours saved up, you get something like 7.5 hours of sick time every 2 weeks (you get less at that point, but you also have the option to convert new sick time accrual to vacation time at a 2:1 ratio at that point, too), so it never really becomes an issue for most people after the first couple of months. I honestly think I have about 6 months' saved up, which frankly at that point you're running into the short-term or even long-term disability arena if you can't come back to work by that point.

 

[Swansong]

I suppose.

We're starting to see "grunt work" wages increase towards a point to where people will actually WANT to come in and do them. But reaching that is still a long ways off.

So this is what we have to do to keep the wheels on the bus so to speak. Cause without it "grunt work" doesn't get done and everything collapses.

I think the fact that pay at the bottom hasn't materially increased in decades is a big part of this professional/non-professional divide. As you say, pay people a fair wage and they're a whole lot more likely to show up on time. Continue to treat them like replaceable garbage, and they'll act accordingly.

 

[RaceBoarder]

What the hell are you talking about? If you're sick then yeah, you should be able to be able to decide "I'm sick" and stay home. And your employer should encourage that. It helps keep people healthy and makes sure your workers are healthy and can rest, recover, and return to work sooner.

We're not talking about deciding to just not work because you're hungover or lazy. This is exactly the same nonsense that the GOP uses to try and pass voter ID laws. People abusing sick time is an insanely scarce problem relative to the population as a whole.

My Company doesnt have "Sick time".... If you have to miss work beyond a week due to illness you go on short term disability or whatever and get like 75% of your average paycheck.

Everything else is "Use it how you want"... At my company, people burn through ALL their time by March, and then cry like a toddler who had a toy taken away when they get disciplinary write-ups for missing work due to issues like car trouble or kid needs in Sept/Oct... That was the original point of my post a few pages ago... Employees use all their time and then complain that they are out of time and should have more...

 

[unofan]

Nothing prevents a company that has merged sick leave and vacation into PTO from doing those things.

Show me one that does, and I'll show you a bridge I have to sell.

Tech companies providing "unlimited PTO" always have the unspoken catch of "but not really."

I believe you said your employees get 25 days of paid PTO per year (can't remember if you just used 25 as an example or not, and I'm too lazy to go back and look). You haven't said there's any carryover except for some flexing around new year's, so I assume that's all they get.

I currently get 22 days of vacation (4 weeks + 2 floating holidays) plus 9 scheduled holidays and 5 weeks of sick time (this might be more like 3 weeks for me since i've accrued so much already) per year. I get to carry all unused vacation time up to a cap of 2x my annual accrual, so up to 44 days' worth. I can accrue an unlimited amount of sick time. I like my deal more.

 

[RENCEB]

I have about 45 days left before retirement. Gave my Company a full quarter notice to give them plenty of time to backfill my position. I agree with Kep to some degree that you owe your Company the same level of loyalty that they would extend to you. However, I feel some loyalty to 100+ people who count on me to make sure that they are paid their correct commissions through the end of the year. That flat out would not happens if I left.
I've worked in Accounting, Audit and Finance for almost 45 years (just like everyone else, I became an Accountant for the fast cars and women). The jobs weren't always fulfilling, but I made sure that other parts of my life were. Coaching soccer and running the town soccer program. Doing youth ministry for more than 20 years. Volunteering at great places like Greater Boston Food Bank and Cradles to Crayons in the Boston area.
Looking forward to more volunteer oportunities, travel with my beautiful wife of 40 years, and spending more time with my grandkids. Almost time to drop the mic........

 

[Swansong]

I have about 45 days left before retirement. Gave my Company a full quarter notice to give them plenty of time to backfull my position. I agree with Kep to some degree that you owe your Company the same level of loyalty that they would extend to you. However, I feel some loyalty to 100+ people who count on me to make sure that they are paid their correct commissions through the end of the year. That flat out would not happens if I left.
I've worked in Accounting, Audit and Finance for almost 45 years (just like everyone else, I became an Accountant for the fast cars and women). The jobs weren't always fulfilling, but I made sure that other parts of my life were. Coaching soccer and running the town soccer program. Doing youth ministry for more than 20 years. Volunteering at great places like Greater Boston Food Bank and Cradles to Crayons in the Boston area.
Looking forward to more volunteer oportunities, travel with my beautiful wife of 40 years, and spending more time with my grandkids. Almost time to drop the mic........

I hope you have an absolutely amazing retirement!

 

[Kepler]

So you're saying I'm being a pawn/follower for knowing that I'm in a job that requires me to show up or use time off and thinking critically when deciding to partake in actions that are likely to result in me not being able to work the following day?

No.

 

[SJHovey]

Show me one that does, and I'll show you a bridge I have to sell.

Tech companies providing "unlimited PTO" always have the unspoken catch of "but not really."

I believe you said your employees get 25 days of paid PTO per year (can't remember if you just used 25 as an example or not, and I'm too lazy to go back and look). You haven't said there's any carryover except for some flexing around new year's, so I assume that's all they get.

I currently get 22 days of vacation (4 weeks + 2 floating holidays) plus 9 scheduled holidays and 5 weeks of sick time (this might be more like 3 weeks for me since i've accrued so much already) per year. I get to carry all unused vacation time up to a cap of 2x my annual accrual, so up to 44 days' worth. I can accrue an unlimited amount of sick time. I like my deal more.

The 25 days were just an example. Our employees start at 21 days. The most senior employee gets 36. I just thought it would be easier to use a single, round number for my example.

And again, no doubt that you have a good benefits package. As I recall, you were in the public sector and at least up here in Minnesota they generally have pretty good benefit packages. I'm glad you get lots of days off, and that you can carry a lot of them over.

What I am saying is that there is nothing that prevents an employer using my plan, of a single category of pto, from doing the same thing. My argument has nothing to do with how many days off you get, or how many you can carry over. My entire argument has been that it's silly to divide them up into things like sick time and vacation time, and only allow days in those categories to be used for that specific reason. Group them all together and use them for any reason.

 

[Slap Shot]

fwiw I get 240 hours of PTO to use however way I wish - VL, SL, LOA, etc. We also can earn an additional 80 hours of "CTO" by way of working on a holiday. These hours can also be used however I choose.

Up to 160 hours of unused PTO gets paid back in February as taxable income. We do not pay for this so this in essence becomes a bonus separate from quarterly and EOY incentive bonuses I can earn.

The company is not as generous to our employees in the U.S., but I forget the differences as it's been 8 years.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

My company’s plan is quite shit- big combined time off bucket. But we can only carry over 40 hours. And of course banked time isn’t paid out when you leave.

 

[LynahFan]

Ugh. Carryover rules stink. Ours let’s you accrue 2x your annual allotment, no artificial date cutoffs. Once you hit 2x, you stop accruing, no payout. If you haven’t taken a vacation in 2 years, you deserve to lose it, in my opinion….