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Antiwork

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When my company got bought out a few years ago we switched to a 0 carryover PTO plan, which is especially terrible during a pandemic. Everyone has to hold on to their time in case they get sick, but then everyone wants to use it at the end of the year because of "use it or lose it". No payout for unused time, no carryover. I despise it and think it's terrible for business. I get not wanting people to bank up months of time, but everywhere I've worked until now at least allowed for 40 hours of carryover.
 
At the old firm we earned PTO based on seniority and we were allowed up to 160 hours of carryover each year, but any surplus was only paid out upon separation if you lived in CA (where state law says they are required to pay it out). So naturally a lot of resignations, including my own, were filed and announced shortly after the employee had returned from a vacation.

Current firm does the "unlimited" PTO thing, just like the first company I worked for after college. Of course it isn't really unlimited, and the way quarterly bonuses are structured you have, at most, probably one week per quarter - whether it's sick, vacation, personal, etc. - if you hope to hit the billable hours threshold (85%+ billable) required to be eligible for a bonus.
 
At the old firm we earned PTO based on seniority and we were allowed up to 160 hours of carryover each year, but any surplus was only paid out upon separation if you lived in CA (where state law says they are required to pay it out). So naturally a lot of resignations, including my own, were filed and announced shortly after the employee had returned from a vacation.

Current firm does the "unlimited" PTO thing, just like the first company I worked for after college. Of course it isn't really unlimited, and the way quarterly bonuses are structured you have, at most, probably one week per quarter - whether it's sick, vacation, personal, etc. - if you hope to hit the billable hours threshold (85%+ billable) required to be eligible for a bonus.

Let me ask you a question. Do you guys go to bed at night and try to come up with ways to assist your employer to fuck you over? Because it seems like it.

I get the psychology of building up, and carrying over indefinitely, the 160 hours of PTO. But you do realize you just made an interest free loan to your employer, right?

Let's say you make $25/hr. If you carry over just one hour of your time, instead of having your employer pay it to you, you just made the employer an interest free loan of $25.91, counting what the employer would have to pay for the additional payroll tax when you get paid.

Let's say your employer employs just 100 people, and each of those people hold 160 hours of PTO in their PTO bank, and the employees are paid an average of $25/hr. That's $430,600 the employer has received in an interest free loan from its employees.

For an employer with 500 employees, the loan amount would be $2,153,000. For a company like 3M, with 95,000 employees, it would be a $409 million loan. For Wells Fargo, with 268,000 employees, it would be an interest free loan (to a bank, no less) of $1.154 billion.

Why do you earn money from your employer, then tell them to just pay you later? As an employer, I thank you for that, but...
 
I personally never carried over that much PTO. The people who did that were usually India folks working in the US who would bank their time to go home for an entire month every couple of years. My point was that I (and many other people) just made damn sure I squeezed out all the PTO I did have before I resigned, knowing it wouldn't be paid out.

I took my vacation time regularly and also always made sure to use my floating holiday, which was "use it or lose it" every year.
 
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Let me ask you a question. Do you guys go to bed at night and try to come up with ways to assist your employer to fuck you over? Because it seems like it.

I get the psychology of building up, and carrying over indefinitely, the 160 hours of PTO. But you do realize you just made an interest free loan to your employer, right?

Let's say you make $25/hr. If you carry over just one hour of your time, instead of having your employer pay it to you, you just made the employer an interest free loan of $25.91, counting what the employer would have to pay for the additional payroll tax when you get paid.

Let's say your employer employs just 100 people, and each of those people hold 160 hours of PTO in their PTO bank, and the employees are paid an average of $25/hr. That's $430,600 the employer has received in an interest free loan from its employees.

For an employer with 500 employees, the loan amount would be $2,153,000. For a company like 3M, with 95,000 employees, it would be a $409 million loan. For Wells Fargo, with 268,000 employees, it would be an interest free loan (to a bank, no less) of $1.154 billion.

Why do you earn money from your employer, then tell them to just pay you later? As an employer, I thank you for that, but...

Because unexpected shit happens and it's good to have some reserve? Because soneone may want to take a mental health day in December and not want to worry about being out of leave time?

Do you not buy insurance because it's just a loan that you may never collect on?

I mean, Jesus, first the argument is people need to plan ahead and they're stupid for not saving time off for the end of the year. Now it's how dare you plan ahead and you're stupid for doing so?
 
Because unexpected **** happens and it's good to have some reserve? Because soneone may want to take a mental health day in December and not want to worry about being out of leave time?

Do you not buy insurance because it's just a loan that you may never collect on?

I mean, Jesus, first the argument is people need to plan ahead and they're stupid for not saving time off for the end of the year. Now it's how dare you plan ahead and you're stupid for doing so?

Yeah, I guess it's not like there is a third option where you take the money, then set it aside as a reserve in case something unexpected happens.
 
Yeah, I guess it's not like there is a third option where you take the money, then set it aside as a reserve in case something unexpected happens.

I'm not understanding this suggestion. How does one "take PTO" over and above one's gross salary?

If use 8 hours of PTO my gross for that pay period is the exact same as if I had taken 0 hours.
 
Yeah, I guess it's not like there is a third option where you take the money, then set it aside as a reserve in case something unexpected happens.

what the fuck does this even mean? They're talking not burning through all your paid time off in case you need to take some time off for an unforeseen event.
 
We can carry over up to 40 hours, but those hours must then be used by March 15 or the remaining hours are forfeited. With being short-staffed for most of the year, there were limitations on how many of us could be on PTO at a given time. We were all scheduling weird mid-week days at the end of the year just to get under that forty-hour limit.
 
I'm not understanding this suggestion. How does one "take PTO" over and above one's gross salary?

If use 8 hours of PTO my gross for that pay period is the exact same as if I had taken 0 hours.

I'm referring to instances where you can carry over PTO and get paid out for it later. If your employer doesn't allow you do do that, then it wouldn't apply.
 
Holding off the need for a major work vent till I have more clarification but a quick comment from the head of my team has got me a bit out of sorts. She may be moving one of the parts of my position somewhere else. I've had this responsibility for about nine years, I really enjoy it, I'm really good at it, many people in the company are aware of it. If this moves, I may look into moving with it. However, I think there will need to be some additional conversation about it before I say anything. Not the way I wanted to start out my morning.
 
I'm not sure what the PTO policy is for my company, but I'm sure it's irrelevant, considering this company has a ridiculous turnover rate.
 
I'm referring to instances where you can carry over PTO and get paid out for it later. If your employer doesn't allow you do do that, then it wouldn't apply.

You're still not making the point you think you are. The unused PTO I can get paid in February cannot be paid to me earlier unless I take an actual day off and in that case my gross pay to that point didn't change. I am not loaning anything to my company.

I don't not take days off to carry over time because who the fuck uses 240 (plus access to an additional 80 hours of CTO) hours of PTO in a year? I could take 20 days off in a year and still get 20 days of PTO paid back to me that I DID NOT PAY FOR!
 
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You're still not making the point you think you are. The unused PTO I can get paid in February cannot be paid to me earlier unless I take an actual day off and in that case my gross pay to that point didn't change. I am not loaning anything to my company.

I don't not take days off to carry over time because who the fuck uses 240 (plus access to an additional 80 hours of CTO) hours of PTO in a year? I could take 20 days off in a year and still get 20 days of PTO paid back to me that I DID NOT PAY FOR!

Ok, I don't really have an interest in continuing to beat this horse long after it's death, especially as I get ready to head out on vacation. But, it occurs to me that we might be talking about two different things here.

It appears that you may be talking about a situation where you are paid a salary, say $200,000/year, and with that you are given 240 hours of PTO. Now, you get paid your $200,000 for your year's work, but if you want, you can choose not to work up to 240 hours of it. If you choose not to work part of the year, your PTO hours are decreased. If you work the whole year, they are not. But either way you get paid $200,000.

If you work the whole year, and still have the 240 hours, then maybe your company only lets you hang onto them and will not pay them out to you, but when you leave or retire, you continue on the payroll until such time as you use up your banked PTO. Or maybe you use it up because you are sick.

That's a pretty common type of plan. If that's the plan, then you aren't giving a loan to the company.

What I was talking about is a situation where a person works and accrues PTO. They are paid for each hour they work. If they choose not to use their PTO during the year, they are given a couple of options. They can have it paid out, or they can bank it for future use or payout. In that situation, I would argue (and have argued in multiple posts) that it's silly to not have it paid out just to somehow create an employer held savings account for you should you need it in the future. Cash it out and put it in your own account and use it in the future.

I would also point out that if in my first example with the salaried employee, that if the company did permit you to work the whole year, not take PTO, then pay out to you your unused 240 hours at the end of the year or let you bank them for use at a later time, then in that case you'd certainly be making an interest free loan.
 
I would also point out that if in my first example with the salaried employee, that if the company did permit you to work the whole year, not take PTO, then pay out to you your unused 240 hours at the end of the year or let you bank them for use at a later time, then in that case you'd certainly be making an interest free loan.

If on salary no you wouldn't be if using any of those 240 hours didn't change the total gross pay during the year. The only way that would be true is if you could take PTO despite working full hours and it resulted in a bump in gross payout = to the # of claimed PTO hours x fixed salary/2,080. I don't know of any company that pays salaried employees as such.
 
If on salary no you wouldn't be if using any of those 240 hours didn't change the total gross pay during the year. The only way that would be true is if you could take PTO despite working full hours and it resulted in a bump in gross payout = to the # of claimed PTO hours x fixed salary/2,080. I don't know of any company that pays salaried employees as such.

It certainly is more common in the public sector. I have this argument all the time with a salaried employee from a public utility with whom I play golf. He's also a numbers guy, and admits that he is essentially handing his employer an interest free loan for the boatload of hours he's been allowed to accumulate.

His argument in favor of doing that is twofold. First, he likes the safety net of the hours because he doesn't necessarily trust himself to not spend the money. Second, in his case the banked hours will be paid out to him based upon his salary at the time he cashes them. So, if he earns a $100,000 salary today when he accrues the hours, but when he cashes them out at retirement he is earning a salary of $120,000, his banked hours have increased in value. Now, there is a question as to whether the rates of his anticipated raises will be higher than, lower than, or equal to what he could get for a return if he took the money now and invested it, but in any event it minimizes the size of the interest free loan he's handing out.

But again, it is probably much more applicable to your average working stiff getting paid for each hour worked, and banking PTO hours for which they might otherwise receive immediate cash.
 
We're starting to work on our objectives for 2022, even though by the time they're done 2022 will be 1/6 complete. My manager forwarded out her objectives. Ours are supposed to cascade down. And they're all high level vague things. I have a hard time creating mine because my work is very tactical, logistics oriented and it doesn't translate to those types of objectives. So when it comes to for a review I have a hard time tying the work I actually do to the objectives I made up. How do you guys do it where you work?
 
Pretty much the same. Don’t forget that annual performance ratings are submitted in early October, and most managers just go by how they feel about each employee’s performance, nothing whatsoever to do with quantifiable performance against objective goals.

The good news: hiring managers in our company have pretty much free reign (EEO aside) to pick who they want, so your performance ratings only determine whether you get a 3.25% or 3.5% raise next year, and have nothing whatsoever to do with your future promotions / opportunities.
 
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