Antiwork

[Kepler]

No it's more "we're telling you you have to stay home but we're also going to punish you for missing work." Good news is my union is grieving every single instance of this with the willingness to take every single one to arbitration if need be (because they'll win easily).

It sure seems illegal for someone to penalize you for following law and policy.

 

[MissThundercat]

I keep coming to work, checking email, and discovering HR keeps soliciting donations of PTO.

There's a reason this place is always hiring.

 

[SJHovey]

What is the discipline they've imposed? Is it actually some form of discipline like a write up or a suspension or something, or is it a requirement that you use paid time off or vacation time or something for your absence, or is it something different?

 

[Jimjamesak]

What is the discipline they've imposed? Is it actually some form of discipline like a write up or a suspension or something, or is it a requirement that you use paid time off or vacation time or something for your absence, or is it something different?

It was a write up, formal discipline.

I’ve already written about my pay ordeal.

 

[SJHovey]

It was a write up, formal discipline.

I’ve already written about my pay ordeal.

Ok, interesting. Thanks for answering. I must have missed your posts about whatever happened with your pay.

I'm genuinely interested in this because we've had to deal with similar issues in terms of people with Covid, people who've been in close contact to people with Covid outside of work, etc..., and it has been a challenge trying to sort through all of the variations while still trying to treat everyone equitably, so I'm always interested in hearing how other employers are handling it, and disputes that are coming up.

It seems sort of incongruous to me that an employer would write up an employee for testing positive for Covid and then staying home.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Not sure how jj's union operates or what agreements they have around comp with his employer, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a tactic his company is using to try and deny people promotions or annual raises. "You got written up for an unexcused absence, so no (or reduced) raise for you this year per the terms of your CBA."

 

[SJHovey]

Not sure how jj's union operates or what agreements they have around comp with his employer, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a tactic his company is using to try and deny people promotions or annual raises. "You got written up for an unexcused absence, so no (or reduced) raise for you this year per the terms of your CBA."

Well that's what I was wondering. The whole thing seems confusing. I have to assume people get sick all the time at that work place, whether it's from Covid or the flu or some other condition. Does everyone get a written warning for getting sick, because that seems pretty harsh.

I mean I guess I could see it if it was discipline for some technicality or something like you didn't call in to the right person or sufficiently far in advance of your shift or something as required by the contract, but just writing someone up for missing work due to illness seems sort of BS.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Not sure how jj's union operates or what agreements they have around comp with his employer, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's a tactic his company is using to try and deny people promotions or annual raises. "You got written up for an unexcused absence, so no (or reduced) raise for you this year per the terms of your CBA."

Not that, our raises are guaranteed per the contract.

It’s really just an attempt at “being fair”, because they’re punishing everyone no matter the circumstances. Most likely some idiot MBA manager at the regional level decided this was the best idea.

It could also be a response to the newly elected hardline union leadership.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Well that's what I was wondering. The whole thing seems confusing. I have to assume people get sick all the time at that work place, whether it's from Covid or the flu or some other condition. Does everyone get a written warning for getting sick, because that seems pretty harsh.

I mean I guess I could see it if it was discipline for some technicality or something like you didn't call in to the right person or sufficiently far in advance of your shift or something as required by the contract, but just writing someone up for missing work due to illness seems sort of BS.

So we’re allowed three “occurrences” over a nine month period before they start discipline. And the only exceptions are either FMLA or something that would qualify as disability, either short-term or long-term. It doesn’t if you went to the ER and had a note from a doctor, got delayed in travel via a storm, or really anything, don’t fucking miss work.

What’s hilarious is they don’t want people “gaming the system” so all it leads to is people gaming FMLA.

 

[SJHovey]

So we’re allowed three “occurrences” over a nine month period before they start discipline. And the only exceptions are either FMLA or something that would qualify as disability, either short-term or long-term. It doesn’t if you went to the ER and had a note from a doctor, got delayed in travel via a storm, or really anything, don’t fucking miss work.

What’s hilarious is they don’t want people “gaming the system” so all it leads to is people gaming FMLA.

Man, that's a terrible system. I could see where it would definitely "encourage" workers to turn a one day illness into three days, with medical care, just to try to get under the FMLA.

Of all the systems I've been exposed to as an employee or an employer, I still like our current one the best. Maybe 20 years ago we went away from vacation time, sick leave and all the rest. Everything is just PTO. I don't care why you are gone, whether you're sick, in Mexico on vacation, or home banging the babysitter. Use your PTO until you're out, and at that point you need to show up for work.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Man, that's a terrible system. I could see where it would definitely "encourage" workers to turn a one day illness into three days, with medical care, just to try to get under the FMLA.

Of all the systems I've been exposed to as an employee or an employer, I still like our current one the best. Maybe 20 years ago we went away from vacation time, sick leave and all the rest. Everything is just PTO. I don't care why you are gone, whether you're sick, in Mexico on vacation, or home banging the babysitter. Use your PTO until you're out, and at that point you need to show up for work.

Here’s a sad fact: Our system is considered “generous”, as in there are far worse systems out there. Welcome to working class America.

 

[Kepler]

Man, that's a terrible system. I could see where it would definitely "encourage" workers to turn a one day illness into three days, with medical care, just to try to get under the FMLA.

Of all the systems I've been exposed to as an employee or an employer, I still like our current one the best. Maybe 20 years ago we went away from vacation time, sick leave and all the rest. Everything is just PTO. I don't care why you are gone, whether you're sick, in Mexico on vacation, or home banging the babysitter. Use your PTO until you're out, and at that point you need to show up for work.

No, that system is terrible too.

What we need is this: you get x hours of PTO a year for every purpose EXCEPT those which are unavoidable.

If you're sick or pregnant or on jury duty you get paid. Period. You didn't do it on purpose. If your employer wants to get reimbursed he can use his fucking nuclear weapons lobby to bribe the gubbmint to pay him back out of the public purse.

The idea that you burn your PTO on an illness is disgusting.

 

[SJHovey]

If you're ........... pregnant ...................... you get paid. Period. You didn't do it on purpose.

Joseph?

 

[Kepler]

Joseph?

"I don't like to talk about that." -- Joseph

 

[dxmnkd316]

No, that system is terrible too.

What we need is this: you get x hours of PTO a year for every purpose EXCEPT those which are unavoidable.

If you're sick or pregnant or on jury duty you get paid. Period. You didn't do it on purpose. If your employer wants to get reimbursed he can use his fucking nuclear weapons lobby to bribe the gubbmint to pay him back out of the public purse.

The idea that you burn your PTO on an illness is disgusting.

that's what we have. Vacation and 4-5 floating holidays are yours to use. Jury duty, sick time, etc is all separate and somewhat unlimited.

pregnancy is a little weird but works out ok for women. Maybe below average now.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Yeah, PTO for sick time is fucking stupid

 

[RaceBoarder]

Maybe it's the 30+ years I have of having a good work ethic, but I feel that at some point people need to step up to the plate and do the job expected of them...

I get 160 hours (4 weeks) of time off work currently (200 hours/5 weeks on Jan 1, 2023). The problem comes in when people use it for stupid shit in the beginning of the year and then have "legit" need come Sept - Dec....

Currently 80% of our building has used at least some of their vacation time already in 2022 with a handful of people already through their 80 hours/2 weeks of PTO (can be used anytime with no advanced scheduling). I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy with people that fuck around like that... They deserve to "find out" later in the year.

 

[Kepler]

Maybe it's the 30+ years I have of having a good work ethic, but I feel that at some point people need to step up to the plate and do the job expected of them...

You owe your employer exactly the same loyalty they give you.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Maybe it's the 30+ years I have of having a good work ethic, but I feel that at some point people need to step up to the plate and do the job expected of them...

I get 160 hours (4 weeks) of time off work currently (200 hours/5 weeks on Jan 1, 2023). The problem comes in when people use it for stupid **** in the beginning of the year and then have "legit" need come Sept - Dec....

Currently 80% of our building has used at least some of their vacation time already in 2022 with a handful of people already through their 80 hours/2 weeks of PTO (can be used anytime with no advanced scheduling). I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy with people that fuck around like that... They deserve to "find out" later in the year.

You're right, I carefully plan my illnesses every year in January.

Many employers don't allow us to carry any vacation over. And I can tell you dozens of examples where people have saved their time for vacation and been told to come in to work and no compensated with additional time off. By combining vacation and sick time, the employer is directly implying being sick is equivalent to being on vacation. For whom? Made worse by the fact that Vacation+Sick=PTO means it incentivizes people to come into work sick thereby burning more PTO for their employees.

Fuck that. You owe these people nothing.


Edit: I was lucky. I learned very early in life that employers don't give a single fuck about you. My parents worked for a very large company in the cities here. My mom was on the top 50 in the company for service time. They had a combined 80 years of service time between them. The company laid both of them off within three months of each other.

Loyalty is a leash they use to keep you in place. They are bound by no such concept.

 

[Kepler]

Serfs and even slaves have bent themselves into pretzels to please their masters, too.

False consciousness is a helluva drug.