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America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Handy -- Prpbably you'll get ill at reading the author's name, but the issues presented by the author of this editorial in the LA Times do bear thinking about.

Have a healthy debate on what should or should not be in "health reform". Just don't do it by rushing a bill through committtee and out for a floor vote in record time.

IMO, the House, once again, practiced Ready, Fire, Aim.

I don't have a problem with Newt I am a fiscal conservative so I respect him a lot in that regard. I may never vote for the man and I may disagree with his views on other topics but I don't hate him either. Plus he is right, this is getting pushed way too quickly probably because Obama and the Dems want to capitalize while they have the numbers. It is one of many reasons I don't support the bill, because rushed legislation usually comes back to bite you in the ***.

I am all for healthy debate the problem is neither side is actually doing it.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I didn't say you had no ideas. I said your ideas are stupid and have no practical application in the real world. Get it right, will ya? :p

With no ideas of their own (Red Cloud summed it up perfectly, he wants something done, unless its Dem sponsored of course)

Yawn. Come on, clown, work harder to amuse me.

For example, a lot of knuckledraggers want to say "buying insurance across state lines will lower costs". I call BS and challenge you to explain how this will help. See I don't know if you actually graduated from RPI, or just went to the hockey games, but it seems anybody with half a brain would recognize that:

1) Having every provider having to have agreements and negotiations with 1,300 different insurers (source: MinnFan) is a logistical nightmare. Talk about driving up costs. The money spent on paperwork/recordkeeping/contracts etc would skyrocket, adding expenses to non-medical care. Really good idea there....:rolleyes:

2) In some places it costs more for health care than others, much like in some places it cost more to insure your car. Call up a car insurer in North Dakota and ask them to cover your car in New York City for North Dakota rates and they'll laugh in your face. Why would health care be any different? Cost is going to be dictated by where you live and what the providers where you live charge, thus adding to the unworkability of your senseless proposal.



I await your response...

Let me teach you something I learned at RPI (oh snap). I'll dumb it down to your level. It's the economic principle of scarcity.

Let's say you want to buy an ice cream cone (yaaaaay ice cream), and there are 1,000 other people in your area that want to buy an ice cream cone. Unfortunately, there are only two places in town that serve ice cream cones, so they're doing great guns as far as business is concerned, but if you don't like their flavors or ice cream or their prices, you're SOL, aren't you? They are only competing with each other, and given high demand, prices will necessarily be high (that's the equlibrium theory of supply and demand, but I won't overload your little mind with that right now).

Say, those ice cream sellers are making pretty high profit margins with very little competition. But what if more people start setting up ice cream shops? More competition means the profit margins decrease - the people have more options (like more variety of flavors) and disperse among the new shops as supply increases, and demand for each individual shop decreases. Thus, prices go down, and people have more variety of flavors. It may not be an optimal situation for the original two shops, because their marginal profit has decreased, but people that are getting into the ice cream business are now earning something too, and it's great for consumers.

Now, imagine that in some other state, they have better ice cream, but there are laws that keep those sellers from being able to sell you ice cream in your hometown. You want that ice cream, and they'd be happy to sell it to you if they could. But since you can't, you have to settle for the lower quality ice cream at a higher price, since that competitor - and many others - cannot enter the market.

The free market will take care of streamlining #1. Where there's a will (to expand markets), there's always a way (to make the process easier in the name of profit). An ice-cream cone in New York City costs more than an ice-cream cone in Vermont, too, but that doesn't mean you can't get Ben and Jerry's in both places. (that's #2, if you missed it).

Hope I didn't distract you with all of that ice cream, buddeh. Please, don't get any drool on the padded walls.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

(munching popcorn)

There really is nothing like watching someone have a meltdown on Teh Interwebs.

That is a meltdown? Then what the hell do you call dtp's diatribes? :eek: ;)

I didn't realize I was having a meltdown...how do I know if it has passed? Did you study this stuff in school?
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Yawn. Come on, clown, work harder to amuse me.



Let me teach you something I learned at RPI (oh snap). I'll dumb it down to your level. It's the economic principle of scarcity.

Let's say you want to buy an ice cream cone (yaaaaay ice cream), and there are 1,000 other people in your area that want to buy an ice cream cone. Unfortunately, there are only two places in town that serve ice cream cones, so they're doing great guns as far as business is concerned, but if you don't like their flavors or ice cream or their prices, you're SOL, aren't you? They are only competing with each other, and given high demand, prices will necessarily be high (that's the equlibrium theory of supply and demand, but I won't overload your little mind with that right now).

Say, those ice cream sellers are making pretty high profit margins with very little competition. But what if more people start setting up ice cream shops? More competition means the profit margins decrease - the people have more options (like more variety of flavors) and disperse among the new shops as supply increases, and demand for each individual shop decreases. Thus, prices go down, and people have more variety of flavors. It may not be an optimal situation for the original two shops, because their marginal profit has decreased, but people that are getting into the ice cream business are now earning something too, and it's great for consumers.

Now, imagine that in some other state, they have better ice cream, but there are laws that keep those sellers from being able to sell you ice cream in your hometown. You want that ice cream, and they'd be happy to sell it to you if they could. But since you can't, you have to settle for the lower quality ice cream at a higher price, since that competitor - and many others - cannot enter the market.

The free market will take care of streamlining #1. Where there's a will (to expand markets), there's always a way (to make the process easier in the name of profit). An ice-cream cone in New York City costs more than an ice-cream cone in Vermont, too, but that doesn't mean you can't get Ben and Jerry's in both places. (that's #2, if you missed it).

Hope I didn't distract you with all of that ice cream, buddeh. Please, don't get any drool on the padded walls.
Wait a second though, are the ice cream sellers the insurance companies or the health care providers? It seems that the analogy would work better if the ice cream companies you refer to were actually ice cream wholesalers.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Wait a second though, are the ice cream sellers the insurance companies or the health care providers? It seems that the analogy would work better if the ice cream companies you refer to were actually ice cream wholesalers.

Please don't think too hard - I had to dumb it down for Rover.

BTW - you asked about Americans and Canadian health care - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw - this video's about 20 minutes long and features Americans trying to get treated in Canada. With plenty of humor.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Let me teach you something I learned at RPI (oh snap). I'll dumb it down to your level. It's the economic principle of scarcity.

Let's say you want to buy an ice cream cone (yaaaaay ice cream), and there are 1,000 other people in your area that want to buy an ice cream cone. Unfortunately, there are only two places in town that serve ice cream cones, so they're doing great guns as far as business is concerned, but if you don't like their flavors or ice cream or their prices, you're SOL, aren't you? They are only competing with each other, and given high demand, prices will necessarily be high (that's the equlibrium theory of supply and demand, but I won't overload your little mind with that right now).

Say, those ice cream sellers are making pretty high profit margins with very little competition. But what if more people start setting up ice cream shops? More competition means the profit margins decrease - the people have more options (like more variety of flavors) and disperse among the new shops as supply increases, and demand for each individual shop decreases. Thus, prices go down, and people have more variety of flavors. It may not be an optimal situation for the original two shops, because their marginal profit has decreased, but people that are getting into the ice cream business are now earning something too, and it's great for consumers.

Now, imagine that in some other state, they have better ice cream, but there are laws that keep those sellers from being able to sell you ice cream in your hometown. You want that ice cream, and they'd be happy to sell it to you if they could. But since you can't, you have to settle for the lower quality ice cream at a higher price, since that competitor - and many others - cannot enter the market.

The free market will take care of streamlining #1. Where there's a will (to expand markets), there's always a way (to make the process easier in the name of profit). An ice-cream cone in New York City costs more than an ice-cream cone in Vermont, too, but that doesn't mean you can't get Ben and Jerry's in both places. (that's #2, if you missed it).

Hope I didn't distract you with all of that ice cream, buddeh. Please, don't get any drool on the padded walls.

No need to dumb it down Red Cloud. Like all of your posts, it was dumb enough as written. :D

Still not convinced you actually attended classes and got a degree from RPI, and this story didn't help your case any.

The problem with your predictably brainless analogy is that you skipped the parallel with medical insurance. Regarding costs, the problem with bringing them down by implementing a "buy across state lines" policy isn't that currently there are too few insurers in a place like New York City. The problem is it costs more to treat people there, and getting your insurance from somebody based in the Plains states isn't going to change that. To use your ice cream example, it would be like if your solution to crappy and expensive ice cream in your area even though there were plenty of stores selling it would be to call someone out of state to sell it to you. It wouldn't make much sense to purchase a cheaper ice cream cone in Nevada if you lived in New York City, now would it? Logistically, it just wouldn't work, nor would it lower the price of the ice cream cones where you live.

Does that help you any? I realize that a lot of times people's comments out here are above your head, but I'm always willing to pitch in. ;)
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

The problem with your predictably brainless analogy is that you skipped the parallel with medical insurance. Regarding costs, the problem with bringing them down by implementing a "buy across state lines" policy isn't that currently there are too few insurers in a place like New York City. The problem is it costs more to treat people there, and getting your insurance from somebody based in the Plains states isn't going to change that. To use your ice cream example, it would be like if your solution to crappy and expensive ice cream in your area even though there were plenty of stores selling it would be to call someone out of state to sell it to you. It wouldn't make much sense to purchase a cheaper ice cream cone in Nevada if you lived in New York City, now would it? Logistically, it just wouldn't work, nor would it lower the price of the ice cream cones where you live.

You're beyond help. What you just wrote refuted nothing about scarcity, nothing at all.

Let me help you out - scarcity doesn't necessarily mean something is hard to find. There may be a number of plans in NYC, but there are also millions of people in NYC. What is scarce in NYC may be more plentiful than what is plentiful in a rural area. More competition drives down costs for the consumer. Period.

I accept your white flag that was your most recent post, considering how you've basically stooped to pathetic levels just to be contrary to me. And by the way, just so you're aware, I don't really give a smeg whether you think I was educated at RPI or not. You can make all the nonsensical arguments you want, you still haven't even made even a minor dent in what I laid out.

So if you'll excuse me, I'll go ahead and go back to ignoring your insane ramblings.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

So if you'll excuse me, I'll go ahead and go back to ignoring your insane ramblings.

Does that mean you will stop quoting them...that would make my day ;) :D
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You're beyond help. What you just wrote refuted nothing about scarcity, nothing at all.

Let me help you out - scarcity doesn't necessarily mean something is hard to find. There may be a number of plans in NYC, but there are also millions of people in NYC. What is scarce in NYC may be more plentiful than what is plentiful in a rural area. More competition drives down costs for the consumer. Period.

I accept your white flag that was your most recent post, considering how you've basically stooped to pathetic levels just to be contrary to me. And by the way, just so you're aware, I don't really give a smeg whether you think I was educated at RPI or not. You can make all the nonsensical arguments you want, you still haven't even made even a minor dent in what I laid out.

So if you'll excuse me, I'll go ahead and go back to ignoring your insane ramblings.

Awwww...did I send you back to taking a tantrum in the sandbox again? You know, you really should learn from my knowledge instead of fighting it. :D

Anyway, since you're going to put your fingers in your ear and yell out "NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH" because you can't stand dissenting opinions, I'll continue to take apart your argument in case you come back.

I own Plains Insurance company. Red Cloud calls me up and wants to be insured. He resides in New York, and the going rate for medical insurance is 1000 a month. Currently my clients in the Plains states are insured for 500 a month. He's spent months comparing plans from some of the 1300 insurers out there, going through all the legalese and what gets covered, and decided on my company.

So, as a businessman, do I 1) offer him the 500 a month, completely disregarding that if he gets sick its going to cost me much more to pay his bills in New York than what my existing customers pay in the Plains, or 2) do I see what the going rate is where he lives, give him a small teaser discount to rope him in (say 950 a month) much like a phone or cable co does, and then next year charge him what everybody else does, knowing that there's little chance if he has a job or a life that he'll once again take 2 months to find yet another policy?

Call me a cynic, but I say option 2. Because, at the end of the day, where you get treatment is a huge determinant of how much your insurance costs, thus making "shopping across state lines" unworkable.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Wait a second though, are the ice cream sellers the insurance companies or the health care providers? It seems that the analogy would work better if the ice cream companies you refer to were actually ice cream wholesalers.

"Ice Cream Wholesalers" would be an awesome band name.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Please don't think too hard - I had to dumb it down for Rover.

BTW - you asked about Americans and Canadian health care - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw - this video's about 20 minutes long and features Americans trying to get treated in Canada. With plenty of humor.
The filmaker is rather entertaining, I agree, but in actuality there was little difference between his experience there and what would happen in the United States. Yes, I watched the whole thing, but in reference to his emergency room visit early on, I once brought my 9 month old into the ER because he had a fever of 105. I waited longer than he did to see a doctor.

Anyway, here's a question that may or may not be analogous to the health care debate... I just bought a twelve pack of store brand soda pop for $2.50 regular price. I know for a fact that it was manufactured by Pepsi, and from the taste of it, the formula can not be significantly different. Why does the twelve pack of Pepsi go for $3.75 on sale?
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

The filmaker is rather entertaining, I agree, but in actuality there was little difference between his experience there and what would happen in the United States. Yes, I watched the whole thing, but in reference to his emergency room visit early on, I once brought my 9 month old into the ER because he had a fever of 105. I waited longer than he did to see a doctor.

Did your ER tell you from the get go that you were probably going to be waiting that long? I'm just curious, because I've been in and out of an ER in about 3 hours total for stitches in my hand.

You did get taken care of, right? Remember the guy with the broken clavicle who had to wait AND had to get it taken care of somewhere else the next day in the end.

But assuming your story is more the norm - I guess that would make things relatively unchanged on that front, PLUS all the other issues and problems they ended up with.

Anyway, here's a question that may or may not be analogous to the health care debate... I just bought a twelve pack of store brand soda pop for $2.50 regular price. I know for a fact that it was manufactured by Pepsi, and from the taste of it, the formula can not be significantly different. Why does the twelve pack of Pepsi go for $3.75 on sale?

I am not following this whatsoever.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I am not following this whatsoever.
I've just been thinking about health care so much lately that I'm starting to imagine parallels everywhere. That's why I was asking broadly to the group, is there a parallel there, or did I just create one in my mind?
 
You're the one who made the claim. I simply want to see if you have anything to back it up and refute my anecdotal evidence.

No, someone else made that claim - I just wanted to see if you could likewise cite a source for your counter-claim. I don't expect a retraction.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Anyway, here's a question that may or may not be analogous to the health care debate... I just bought a twelve pack of store brand soda pop for $2.50 regular price. I know for a fact that it was manufactured by Pepsi, and from the taste of it, the formula can not be significantly different. Why does the twelve pack of Pepsi go for $3.75 on sale?


well regardless of whether or not the store brand soda is actually made by pepsi, it costs less for you because there are no advertising costs associated with the product (in fact Pepsi pays for you to come into the store to buy soda in the first place). the analogy you could make to red cloud's argument is how malpractice insurance raises the cost of national products (aka pepsi), while the store brand is unencumbered by extra cost.

otherwise, even if pepsi does sell product under a private label it is to capitalize on the market seeking a low cost option, while many other people will simply continue to buy the more expensive brand name item because they equate that with quality. But I dont see an analogy there - there shouldnt be any quality differences between a govt low cost plan and a private plan. Obama would hope that employers continue to offer their private insurance (or face a penalty if they dont) but he cant ultimately control who ends up in the public option.
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

"Ice Cream Wholesalers" would be an awesome band name.

How about "Uninsured Ice Cream Wholesalers"? Their first album could be "Smoking in the Emergency Room" ... maybe some Dead Kennedys or Butthole Surfers influences ...
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

I've just been thinking about health care so much lately that I'm starting to imagine parallels everywhere. That's why I was asking broadly to the group, is there a parallel there, or did I just create one in my mind?

No, I'm saying you've completely lost me with that last soda thing. I'm thinking you didn't get my original analogy - you put too much thought into it.
 
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