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America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Sorry, but that's not what Obama said. The points that you and other have made about the possibility of employers dropping health insurance or switching to cheaper, less comprehensive plans merely reinforces my point that Obama is making promises he can't keep.

No that is what conservatives were saying last week...just trying to be consistent! I honestly don't care what Obama says because tomorrow he will change his mind and then flip back three days later. I think this whole thing is stupid.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

The points that you and other have made about the possibility of employers dropping health insurance or switching to cheaper, less comprehensive plans merely reinforces my point that Obama is making promises he can't keep.

so you want obama to force your employer to keep your healthcare because you like it? well you are right, that certainly isnt socialist.... its facist. which is why the republicans were purged from office.
 
But yet you will trust the GOP and your fellow conservatives who have made careers out of lying...including the ones spouting about death panels who supported the same legislation just 5 years ago that they denounce now? Who are you trying to kid Patman?

This is actually a good point.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Apparently not...keep on fighting the good fight one day your life in tyranny will end! :D

Was going to say something here... something about boiling a frog, but I forgot.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

But yet you will trust the GOP and your fellow conservatives who have made careers out of lying...including the ones spouting about death panels who supported the same legislation just 5 years ago that they denounce now? Who are you trying to kid Patman?

What part did she lie about? Oh, right, they won't be called "death panels" and they won't decide on an individual basis which would seem to be implied by such an object.

No, they'll make decisions which affect the lives of tens of thousands at a time... that stupid Palin must be wrong!

Will there or will there not be a panel to decide which is the most efficacious way to handle treatment. The problem is that systems that evolve to single-payer is that they are death boards... under such systems there will be no alternative because operating outside of the system is unfair to the community. The reality is that they don't get called death-boards. England calls it NICE. Nobody would ever work for the "death board"... but if they work for the governmental health purchasing organization that has a much better ring to it.
 
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Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Yeah except that isnt in the bill it is a made up piece of BS and you know it. Once again, find it for me...there is what 1100 pages worth of stuff in the proposed bill, just find me the part where it says anything like what Sarah "Err...duh!" Palin describes or even the part about going single payer...take your time I got all night :D (this is where someone brings up the "end of life counseling" which...funny, many members of the GOP supported just a few years ago)

But hey, she is a conservative, she would never lie! I mean no one on the right side of the aisle would ever lie to you or distort the facts in any way! Only Barack HUSSEIN Obama would ever lie to the public. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways Patman between you and Red Cloud's awesome ability to anonymously insult and bully from afar I have seen the truth! The Left are liars, the Right never lies or does anything wrong! Well except lie about spending, affairs, cover-ups and being gay...but beyond that they are squeeky clean! :p ;) :D

BTW I hope one of these nuts that brings a gun to the townhall meeting (especially the ones the President is at) gets shot in the balls on live TV. I am all for the Second Amendment but I believe in Darwin more :D
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Neither do I but I want some reform put in because the rates are getting out of hand. Jesus my insurance in grad school doesn't even cover blood tests for a basic physical...***!!! :eek:

I think a majority want reform, they just don't want the the system blown up.

What about all the paper pushers in hospitals, why are there more administration then there are medical care providers in a hospital?
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Handy -- Prpbably you'll get ill at reading the author's name, but the issues presented by the author of this editorial in the LA Times do bear thinking about.

Have a healthy debate on what should or should not be in "health reform". Just don't do it by rushing a bill through committtee and out for a floor vote in record time.

IMO, the House, once again, practiced Ready, Fire, Aim.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

NBC news this morning, Is Obamas health care plan a good or bad idea
44% bad
36%good

Its not Rasmussen:p :p :p
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

NBC news this morning, Is Obamas health care plan a good or bad idea
44% bad
36%good

Its not Rasmussen:p :p :p
When the phrasing changes from "Obama" to "Democrat", will be the sign that the 2010 Congressionals will be REAL interesting.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

What part did she lie about? Oh, right, they won't be called "death panels" and they won't decide on an individual basis which would seem to be implied by such an object.

No, they'll make decisions which affect the lives of tens of thousands at a time... that stupid Palin must be wrong!

Will there or will there not be a panel to decide which is the most efficacious way to handle treatment. The problem is that systems that evolve to single-payer is that they are death boards... under such systems there will be no alternative because operating outside of the system is unfair to the community. The reality is that they don't get called death-boards. England calls it NICE. Nobody would ever work for the "death board"... but if they work for the governmental health purchasing organization that has a much better ring to it.

First of all, they haven't discussed anything about a national plan similar to the UK's in any of the bills that have been presented. Second of all, even major insurance companies decide at what point it is efficacious to continue to treat someone. You should look at how much money we spend on the last 6 months of a persons life compared to the rest of their life on health care, it is ridiculous. (I wish I could get a health care plan that would charge me lower premiums if I agreed to not get ridiculous cancer drugs to keep me alive for 3 more months) So what is in the bill is paying doctors to have a discussion about end of life care and writing living wills or health care proxies, so that people understand what end of life care they will be getting. It has been shown in studies that people who have these discussions with their doctors spend a lot less money at the end of their lives on health care, and are generally happier with what happens. It is not a "death panel" because there is no panel, it is a discussion between you and your doctor, and they don't force you to write something in your living will, you get to decide. It is disingenuous to have this whole discussion about death panels, and then dodge questions when reporters ask you if there are really death panels in the bill when there aren't. Many republicans voted for the same exact provision in a previous medicare bill.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Yeah except that isnt in the bill it is a made up piece of BS and you know it. Once again, find it for me...there is what 1100 pages worth of stuff in the proposed bill, just find me the part where it says anything like what Sarah "Err...duh!" Palin describes or even the part about going single payer...take your time I got all night :D (this is where someone brings up the "end of life counseling" which...funny, many members of the GOP supported just a few years ago)

But hey, she is a conservative, she would never lie! I mean no one on the right side of the aisle would ever lie to you or distort the facts in any way! Only Barack HUSSEIN Obama would ever lie to the public. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways Patman between you and Red Cloud's awesome ability to anonymously insult and bully from afar I have seen the truth! The Left are liars, the Right never lies or does anything wrong! Well except lie about spending, affairs, cover-ups and being gay...but beyond that they are squeeky clean! :p ;) :D

BTW I hope one of these nuts that brings a gun to the townhall meeting (especially the ones the President is at) gets shot in the balls on live TV. I am all for the Second Amendment but I believe in Darwin more :D

(munching popcorn)

There really is nothing like watching someone have a meltdown on Teh Interwebs.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

That's not the point. The point is that when Obama says that everyone can keep whatever plan they have if they like it, he's promising them something that's not their control. It's an absurd statement and a totally empty promise.
Regardless of what the big O says (he is like every other politician- says different stuff each day that is then further distorted by only showing or quoting snippets out of context) no one is keeping what they have. Maybe we should start a poll on here asking what has happened to your healthcare costs in the last yr. Ours went from $70 to$124 per paycheck. What we get for coverage is less and the copay has doubled. I don't think that is uncommon. Wait a year and see what it is then:eek:

What part did she lie about? Oh, right, they won't be called "death panels" and they won't decide on an individual basis which would seem to be implied by such an object.

No, they'll make decisions which affect the lives of tens of thousands at a time... that stupid Palin must be wrong!

Will there or will there not be a panel to decide which is the most efficacious way to handle treatment. The problem is that systems that evolve to single-payer is that they are death boards... under such systems there will be no alternative because operating outside of the system is unfair to the community. The reality is that they don't get called death-boards. England calls it NICE. Nobody would ever work for the "death board"... but if they work for the governmental health purchasing organization that has a much better ring to it.
Actually the answer is she is wrong. As stated before most hospitals have ethics panels that try to help prevent giving an already brain dead patient multiple other interventions or the like. I believe the bill does is require that the provider gets reimbursed for discussing end of life decisions with the patient. Most of the time the insurance companies will not pay for any discussions we have with patients.

I find it astounding that discussing real information regarding what might happen to your body and what you would decide has morphed into death panels. No one said that the discussion needs to take place when someone is acutely ill. Ideally, it should be discussed when the person is healthy. People are usually grateful to have someone discuss this kind of stuff with them. Pts say stuff like "don't plug me in" but it isn't as simple as that. They should be knowledgeable about options like do you give fluids, a vent , do you do a feeding tube, do you you do it if it will be temporary etc.
I think the post below is spot on. There are quite a few studies that show people are much happier to be knowlegeable.

First of all, they haven't discussed anything about a national plan similar to the UK's in any of the bills that have been presented. Second of all, even major insurance companies decide at what point it is efficacious to continue to treat someone. You should look at how much money we spend on the last 6 months of a persons life compared to the rest of their life on health care, it is ridiculous. (I wish I could get a health care plan that would charge me lower premiums if I agreed to not get ridiculous cancer drugs to keep me alive for 3 more months) So what is in the bill is paying doctors to have a discussion about end of life care and writing living wills or health care proxies, so that people understand what end of life care they will be getting. It has been shown in studies that people who have these discussions with their doctors spend a lot less money at the end of their lives on health care, and are generally happier with what happens. It is not a "death panel" because there is no panel, it is a discussion between you and your doctor, and they don't force you to write something in your living will, you get to decide. It is disingenuous to have this whole discussion about death panels, and then dodge questions when reporters ask you if there are really death panels in the bill when there aren't. Many republicans voted for the same exact provision in a previous medicare bill.
Living wills are not always binding. You can write what you want, talk about it with the provider and diascuss it with your family. All it takes is one pushy family member that agitates for more intervention and Bob is your uncle. Folks are too worried about being sued. The big disappointment -tort reform is nowhere to be found:(

I think a majority want reform, they just don't want the the system blown up.

What about all the paper pushers in hospitals, why are there more administration then there are medical care providers in a hospital?
They are pushing paper to fullfill the insurance companies many requirements ?:p
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

They are pushing paper to fullfill the insurance companies many requirements ?:p

I know, whats going to change?. It has to be a significant part of a hospital bill, even though its not shown.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Actually the answer is she is wrong. As stated before most hospitals have ethics panels that try to help prevent giving an already brain dead patient multiple other interventions or the like. I believe the bill does is require that the provider gets reimbursed for discussing end of life decisions with the patient. Most of the time the insurance companies will not pay for any discussions we have with patients.

I find it astounding that discussing real information regarding what might happen to your body and what you would decide has morphed into death panels. No one said that the discussion needs to take place when someone is acutely ill. Ideally, it should be discussed when the person is healthy. People are usually grateful to have someone discuss this kind of stuff with them. Pts say stuff like "don't plug me in" but it isn't as simple as that. They should be knowledgeable about options like do you give fluids, a vent , do you do a feeding tube, do you you do it if it will be temporary etc.
I think the post below is spot on. There are quite a few studies that show people are much happier to be knowlegeable.

You're operating on an ideal... but thanks for reminding me about the gov'ts end-of-life planning. Fact of the matter is that they will eventually encourage DNRs when it becomes not just evident but moral that the elderly impose costs and it would only be moral for society if nature were to take its course. After all, if the state is the embodiment and representative of our moral system then it decides that which is proper.

The problem is not the good intentions of man. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"... and this seems more like a freeway.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

Here's one idea that our so-called health expert, who thinks he's above the partisan fray and some moral authority on the subject refuses to broach despite his wordy dissertations on how great ObamaCare will be.

Why not combine tort reform with the creation of a real competitive environment for health care? :eek:

Now, pardon the length of the following, but I've recently learned that, in order to be right about something, you have to write lots and lots of words.

No one is asking the fundamental question, or at least, no one is trying to understand the answer to the fundamental question. Why is health insurance considered expensive? The knee jerk reaction around here? "Well, the insurance companies, they only want PROFIT. What a horrible, horrible motivation. They should be doing this for free, obviously, but it's that disgustingly un-American PROFIT that is keeping illegals and other uninsured folks from having their own coverage.

To answer our question, we must work backwards. Why is it expensive? Well, how do they come to the cost? It's expensive because medical care is expensive these days. Why is that? It's expensive for three main reasons - first, because doctors need to recoup the skyrocketing costs of medical school, which are rising much faster than the standard of living. Second, because doctors are required to carry millions and millions of dollars worth of malpractice coverage, premiums for which have been similarly skyrocketing over the last decade. And third, naturally, is that EVIL PROFIT that doctors are looking for.

The last one, we can't do anything about short of abolishing the 13th Amendment. Something could be done about the first one, but let's focus on the second one for now - why is medical malpractice insurance so expensive? Well, it's because insurance companies have been forced to dole out larger and larger settlements in court as ambulance chasing lawyers prowl about looking for the slightest excuse to sue for the largest pot of money they can convince a jury to hand out to a victim who may or may not be truly victimized. In addition, many states are requiring doctors to carry more and more protection just in order to practice. So not only do premiums continue to rise, the minimum coverage continues to rise as well, making it more and more expensive for doctors to keep themselves covered.

Premiums are so high now that many doctors are leaving the profession. Then we go back to what The Exiled One said - fewer doctors means more burden for the premiums. Prices go up as customers - doctors - become more scarce.

There's a corollary effect to this, as well.

Here's an excerpt from a brilliant piece in the Daily Mail by Stephen Glover, who critcizes both the American and British healthcare systems:

Once, in America and suffering from bad earache, I visited a local doctor. In [Britain] I would probably have been greeted with a weary smile, and, if lucky, offered an aspirin.

In the United States I was cosseted by a pretty nurse, and subjected to several exhaustive tests by an accommodating doctor, one of which involved me sitting in a sound-proof booth to have my hearing tested. At the end of it all I was presented with a bill for several hundred dollars - and the verdict that I had nothing to worry about.

"Several hundred dollars" - that is what the Obamatons will focus on in that passage. But what have we been doing kids? Work backward. "Several hundred dollars" follows "several exhaustive tests." Why did the hospital perform "several exhaustive tests" costing "several hundred dollars" for nothing more than a bad earache? It's because doctors are concerned about malpractice. Tests that usually would not be run become MANDATORY for doctors who must rule out EVERYTHING, even the least possible cause, lest they misdiagnose and... bingo! Malpractice lawsuit. More tests equal more costs. More costs equal - you guessed it, a higher bill. Higher bills equal higher premiums.

All of this - ALL of it - goes back to the "legal lotto." Eight and nine figure judgments in court are commonplace these days. I know what the knee-jerk reaction is going to be from the Obamatons - BUT YOU CAN'T KEEP THESE POOR PEOPLE FROM SUING! SOME OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE TRULY HAD THEIR LIVES RUINED BY MEDICAL MALPRACTICE! And to that I say, you are right. There are some people who truly need the legal system due to some completely inept doctors out there. But how many cases are there that really require eight or nine figure judgments? Even a lot of smaller judgments are, to be quite honest, frivolous, the product of hucksters in pinstriped suits spinning a sob story for a jury he picked for gullibility.

Serious, honest tort reform would produce an effect in the opposite direction. Limits on this "legal lotto" would necessarily drive premium costs for MMI down through free-market competition for customers, and would keep doctors from having to conduct myriad tests and such when they probably aren't really warranted. More doctors would come back to practice, all in all driving costs down, and drive down the costs of healthcare premiums as well.

The second idea is simpler - encourage competition in the health insurance marketplace by loosening restrictions on what and where people can buy, across state lines. Obama has been spouting that a government program would introduce more competition into the market, but a government program would increase competion by precisely one option. Why not increase by MANY options?

I'm sure no one will read all of this, and that's cool. You know, I'm just such a partisan hack (leswp1) with no ideas (Rover).
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

To answer our question, we must work backwards. Why is it expensive? Well, how do they come to the cost? It's expensive because medical care is expensive these days. Why is that? It's expensive for three main reasons - first, because doctors need to recoup the skyrocketing costs of medical school, which are rising much faster than the standard of living. Second, because doctors are required to carry millions and millions of dollars worth of malpractice coverage, premiums for which have been similarly skyrocketing over the last decade. And third, naturally, is that EVIL PROFIT that doctors are looking for.

The last one, we can't do anything about short of abolishing the 13th Amendment. Something could be done about the first one.

1. Why do doctors get to recoup their education costs faster than the average American does? I don't see other professions getting huge bumps in pay relative to their education costs.

2. What is it that could be done about it? I can't speak for other States but Minnesota in particular considers higher education not important for investment and uses cutting their funding (thus raising tuition) to be one of the best methods to balancing the budget.

Your other ideas are solid.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

You're operating on an ideal... but thanks for reminding me about the gov'ts end-of-life planning. Fact of the matter is that they will eventually encourage DNRs when it becomes not just evident but moral that the elderly impose costs and it would only be moral for society if nature were to take its course. After all, if the state is the embodiment and representative of our moral system then it decides that which is proper.

The problem is not the good intentions of man. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"... and this seems more like a freeway.

DNRs are useless if the hospital thinks it can get big money for keeping the patient alive. Of course I've only seen this with my only two relatives that had DNRs, so I'll admit it is a small sample.
 
Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - The USCHO debates

1. Why do doctors get to recoup their education costs faster than the average American does? I don't see other professions getting huge bumps in pay relative to their education costs.

2. What is it that could be done about it? I can't speak for other States but Minnesota in particular considers higher education not important for investment and uses cutting their funding (thus raising tuition) to be one of the best methods to balancing the budget.

I don't know enough about education funding and federal issues with regards to tuition and aid to be able to answer these - part of the reason why I didn't broach a solution in that long disseration I just wrote. I assume there's something that could be done, but I'm not sure what that is.

Your other ideas are solid.

Thank you.
 
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