All Things Denver XXX

[Almington]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

I don't know how close you have ever been to players or their families, but I have been very close to many over the years and have witnessed how an innocent family member can be affected by reckless rhetoric from some moronic fan. It's not "blindly following" but rather having proper respect, something I learned at a young age to have for our Pios from Jimbo.

Please, excuse my continued interruption. My experience with DU parents is limited, I have extensive experience with UW parents. Criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive. Parents (all of a player's friends and relatives actually) have a problem when criticism crosses a line into a personal attack which is understandable and justifiable. These parents have been following hockey for many years, they can recognize a valid criticism and then can often dismiss baseless rhetoric as nothing more then the ignorant ranting of someone who has no idea what's actually going on. Players are often their own harshest critics, they know when they have screwed up and it's important for them to learn the difference between "Team leaders need to use better judgment in critical situations then that" and "That was totally stupid! What type of idiot would do that! How'd he even get into this school? Moron!" Not just for their hockey career, but life in general. No one likes to receive criticism, but learning how to use that criticism in a positive way to improve oneself is one of the most important lessons anyone can take away from playing a sport.

 

[Almington]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

And enlighten me...how does someone's true support or non-criticism actually end up being this "blind obedience that leads to complacency and eventually a lack of improvement" -- as if a fan has any ability to lead improvement or actually motivate the players through idiotic criticism that they are in no way qualified to hand out. LOL is all I have for this one...get over yourself.

I clearly know nothing about hockey, how could I possible have an opinion about what I see on the ice. We should just tell everyone they are perfect at everything and everyone should get the same award for just trying.

No one likes to receive criticism (I know that I don't), but learning how to use that criticism in a positive way to improve oneself is one of the most important lessons anyone can take away from playing a sport.

Because both internal and external criticism allows everyone to focus on their weaknesses and past mistakes and improve themselves, to aspire to be better tomorrow then they are today.

I wasn't just talking about sports either, their are many other areas of life where criticism is no longer generally acceptable. Teachers can't give low grades because a student tried and they'll feel bad. Say anything negative about the government and you are un-American.

 

[Chris]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

Please, excuse my continued interruption. My experience with DU parents is limited, I have extensive experience with UW parents. Criticism and respect are not mutually exclusive. Parents (all of a player's friends and relatives actually) have a problem when criticism crosses a line into a personal attack which is understandable and justifiable. These parents have been following hockey for many years, they can recognize a valid criticism and then can often dismiss baseless rhetoric as nothing more then the ignorant ranting of someone who has no idea what's actually going on. Players are often their own harshest critics, they know when they have screwed up and it's important for them to learn the difference between "Team leaders need to use better judgment in critical situations then that" and "That was totally stupid! What type of idiot would do that! How'd he even get into this school? Moron!" Not just for their hockey career, but life in general. No one likes to receive criticism, but learning how to use that criticism in a positive way to improve oneself is one of the most important lessons anyone can take away from playing a sport.

You touch on some of my points, that there is enough criticism and self-doubt already in their heads plus the coaches do their jobs and criticize. When is it enough for these kids? The line has to be drawn somewhere. We aren't the coaches, it's not our job to criticize them. Fans are not able to provide the CONSTRUCTIVE criticism which is needed to improve; "you suck" is not constructive, FWIW -- though I guess it means not being a "blind follower", so yelping "you suck" makes some people feel good.

I don't know about anyone else, but I make a portion of my living by performing (music), much like these kids are "performing" for us. You know what? Even the most time-tested people still have self-doubts and sometimes that line between being able to perform phenomenally and not so much is razor thin and positive comments let you better rise above that threshold of self-doubt, whereas negative comments don't really do much good...just saying. It's all a mindset and having a positive attitude, plus ones from people around you, helps you achieve the desired goals.

Disclaimer: As always, these are my opinions from my own experiences (aka YMMV)

 

[JW Tigers]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

Uh, they're amateurs.

I don't know how close you have ever been to players or their families, but I have been very close to many over the years and have witnessed how an innocent family member can be affected by reckless rhetoric from some moronic fan. It's not "blindly following" but rather having proper respect, something I learned at a young age to have for our Pios from Jimbo.

Ahh, come to think of it, you are one of the ones who seems to think that they can obtain some sort of a coolness factor for having an "RIP Jimbo" in their signature...well all I am doing is supporting the mindset of Jimbo, my father, who I learned my passion from and it is pure hypocrisy for someone to pimp out his name and yet disrespect what he stood for. By you weighing in on something that is really none of your business, trying to still pimp my dad's name while totally disrespecting what he stood for about college hockey, you are showing some true ignorance and I would respectfully ask for you to remove any reference to my dad aka Jimbo from your sig -- and that would go for anyone else who wants to freely throw his name around without proper respect for what he stood for. It would not be a far reach for me to get Jimbo's brother (obviously my uncle) nor his wife (obviously my mom) to comment about this as they both follow DU quite closely (my mom could school 99% of all DU fans in anything hockey, but that's beside the point) and have a true understanding of where Jimbo was coming from and would also not appreciate how his name is used by people who have no true understanding of where he came from -- even if they think they do. It's all about respect...

Chris, my comments have nothing to do with your father. So don't play that card. Having "RIP Jimbo" in my signature has/had nothing to do with "coolness", as you claim, but rather to simply remember him. I'm actually a bit offended and I feel sorry for you if you are truly so cynical. One can respect your father without having to take his exact approach. You talk so much about "respect", but it seems by some of your posts that you need more of a lesson in it than many of us. Even though I think you were out of line for making those comments, I will do what you so "respectfully" asked me to do, and I will remove the "RIP Jimbo" from my sig, if nothing else, because I don't want to argue about it with you.

Anytime I have criticized my team, I have done it in a respectful manner. I have not been "close" to players nor many of their families (however you define that), but I have known some, sat with families at games, etc. I have never criticized a college player by using a personal attack in any way, and I have always been respectful about it. However, I HAVE made comments about feeling like my team was inconsistent, not ready to play, etc. Criticism can be done in a respectful manner, believe it or not. Whatever, I was just trying to put in my two cents.

 

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

Interesting debate. It begs the question about how many players actually read this forum and if they do would they really take it to heart? I know I always have them in the back of my mind when I write about them, or even more so the parents. Like many of you, I am in awe of their skills. Having played men's league and knowing how really hard this sport is, it's mind boggling how skilled they are. So I guess I'm in the camp of not publicly criticizing them, but I understand other people's frustration with coughing up the puck on the blue line, passing the puck in front of your own net, squeezing the stick etc. I think I'm more critical of the opposing players, especially the goons and thugs. One more thing, when I was in town a few weeks ago for the Tech series, I was disappointed in the quality of cheers the students had against the Tech players. "You suck" or "Suck it", just doesn't impress me as being very clever or knowledgeable. In Orono, the students have well choreographed cheers for and against the home and visiting players that are unbelievably creative, funny, clean and show a certain level of understanding the game. In other words, I don't see how "suck it" is anything to be proud of. There, end of diatribe!!!

 

[dave29]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

No. This guy belongs to DU. Enjoy...

We have Lack Of Success and you guys have this guy. Oh well, everyone has one.

 

[Mannino Saves]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

Of course people can disagree - that's fine. I have no issue with fans who just cheer and support the team. They are great and that's what makes this America. But when you come on here and start chirping at other DU fans and telling them to shut up if they have a negative opinion, then they should be prepared to defend thmselves and their opinions from others who think differently.

I'd submit that most good players use all criticism as motivation, and that DU is a much better team because of that motivation. If anything we fans write has put a chip on players shoulder to prove us wrong, and that player has played better becuase of it, then we have done an important thing for team performance, just as important as cheering them on. As former Air Force football coach Fisher DeBerry once said "Half the fun in life is proving others wrong."

I want DU players to prove me wrong,as it leads to better performances. What I do helps the team far more than hurting it.

I remember suggesting that Pauko switch to defense and I got obliterated on this board. Looking back, would have trying it really hurt?

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

D-I College hockey players in revenue programs are elite athletes, and while the NCAA classifies tham as 'amateurs' they are just paid in different ways than cash. The package of benefits most of them get each each year is probably worth at least $100,000 per year when you consider tuition, room and board, books, coaching, icetime, travel, equipment, medical, strength training, media exposure and campus adulation. 5,000-6,000 people pay upwards of $25 per game to watch them, they are on TV and many of them will go on to pro careers. Like it or not, most of these players aren't playing for the love of the game. Revenue producing D-I programs have become defacto farm teams for pro hockey.

For me, I treat DU hockey players like the ostensible elite pros-in-training that they are. At this level, they should be able to handle some fan criticism. And so should their parents. These aren't 12 year olds. If they can't handle it, they should be playing club hockey or intramurals.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

Interesting debate. It begs the question about how many players actually read this forum and if they do would they really take it to heart? I!!!

Most do read it and so do their parents, coaches and administrators. USCHO fan forum and (And DG's blog) have become the place to hear the voices of the ultra die-hard fans - that .001% of a fan base that cares enough to seek out and write their opinions on a message board. There are about 15-20 regular DU posters here and at DG's site, most of them pretty knowledgeable long-term folks who have been following the program for years. Do people care what we think? Most don't but some do. Coaches and players have referenced us in media comments and some of us get email from them from time to time. I think there is some motivational stuff on here, and I do think it makes players better, if only as they prove the naysayers wrong. Players love doing that, and for that alone, our purpose is worth it.

 

[Dmann]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

I remember suggesting that Pauko switch to defense and I got obliterated on this board. Looking back, would have trying it really hurt?

I remember that!! I think putting a forward back on D is a really risky thing to do. Although Gwoz did put Mullen back there didn't he?

 

[uaafanblog]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

If you don't have something good to say then say nothing at all

One's need as a fan to commiserate with other fans regarding specific performances of (or lack thereof) specific players can easily be achieved in this wonderful technological world without doing so in public.

Publicly stated desires for specific outcomes can quite easily be expressed by a person of letters without personal negativity expressed which may require the object to have "thick skin". Who are you to decide that it's their responsibility as players, family members of friends to acquire this personality trait?

The noted value of a DU education including all the things you often mention as being $100K a year is inflated, exaggerated and simply grotesque. Using such a number as a rationalization in targeting any single or group of players is disingenuous with the real world knowledge that the actual worth is substantially less than this oft quoted number.

A fan that chooses on his own volition to financially support their program over and above what is necessary to be a fan has no additional rights to negatively express themselves than some poor schmuck who is forced to sit in his fetid apartment in Commerce City and listen to 1/2 of the home games on the radio. He might work at MacDonald's but that doesn't give you more rights than him simply because you can afford to choose to provide financial support.

Be whatever sort of fan you choose to be. But when someone else criticizes it (even if they are ineloquent) then try listening to the message versus the method and adhere to your own expectations about thick skin.

 

[dave29]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

The Testwuide brothers have a blog out there. Below is the link. Some good stuff. Enjoy!

http://testwuidebros.wordpress.com/

 

[Old Pio]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

One's need as a fan to commiserate with other fans regarding specific performances of (or lack thereof) specific players can easily be achieved in this wonderful technological world without doing so in public.

Publicly stated desires for specific outcomes can quite easily be expressed by a person of letters without personal negativity expressed which may require the object to have "thick skin". Who are you to decide that it's their responsibility as players, family members of friends to acquire this personality trait?

The noted value of a DU education including all the things you often mention as being $100K a year is inflated, exaggerated and simply grotesque. Using such a number as a rationalization in targeting any single or group of players is disingenuous with the real world knowledge that the actual worth is substantially less than this oft quoted number.

A fan that chooses on his own volition to financially support their program over and above what is necessary to be a fan has no additional rights to negatively express themselves than some poor schmuck who is forced to sit in his fetid apartment in Commerce City and listen to 1/2 of the home games on the radio. He might work at MacDonald's but that doesn't give you more rights than him simply because you can afford to choose to provide financial support.

Be whatever sort of fan you choose to be. But when someone else criticizes it (even if they are ineloquent) then try listening to the message versus the method and adhere to your own expectations about thick skin.

Just what we need, this bloviating weenie stinking up our thread. Again! Regardless of what dollar value is placed on the value of a DU degree it's clearly worth it, if this guy's writing style is indicative of what UAA produces.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

One's need as a fan to commiserate with other fans regarding specific performances of (or lack thereof) specific players can easily be achieved in this wonderful technological world without doing so in public.

Publicly stated desires for specific outcomes can quite easily be expressed by a person of letters without personal negativity expressed which may require the object to have "thick skin". Who are you to decide that it's their responsibility as players, family members of friends to acquire this personality trait?

Be whatever sort of fan you choose to be. But when someone else criticizes it (even if they are ineloquent) then try listening to the message versus the method and adhere to your own expectations about thick skin.

You have some good points, Donald. My response here reflects a bigger issue. I do listen and I do have a thick skin, believe me. I've endured all manner of nasty and sometimes threatening letters, emails and even parental confrontations, some of them scary. I've always bounced back from these periodic personal episodes, but one unsigned letter I received this week is particularly concerning and has me currently in the process of reconsidering my entire participation here.

This year, more than any other, has seen more backlash against me than any other year before. I don't think the things I've written have been substantially more inflammatory now than in previous years, but I do think some people out there have clearly had their cumulative fill of me. As such, posting is much less fun/cathartic as it once was. If this were a college football or basketball board with hundreds of thousands posting opinions, I don't think people would bother much with one individual internet opinion. But in college hockey, where the viewership is tiny and the community somewhat insular, one voice can seem way more outsized then it really is...

I have posted on these boards for 15 years, with the last 11 under the current moniker. I've weathered plenty of praise and criticism, some of it warranted, some of it not. I've had a lot of fun here, and there's been difficult times too. I've dished it out in the most factual and informed way that I can, and I've tried to keep arguments to the content or idea, rather than get involved in emotional flamefests. I've tried to add insight and value, and I've met a lot of great people here over the years.

I suppose I could participate with more caution, less honest opinions and only provide positive commentary. But that just isn't me. I am just too passionate for that. God knows, I love my school, I love this game and I love this board and the community behind it. But when your honest opinions posted for entertainment and fun begin to have unforseen implications beyond a message board with people who matter, it might be time to find for me to find different ways to participate...

 

[dggoddard]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

We live in an communication crazy, wireless bombarding, Facebook driven society that never sleeps. Television, websites & Twitter have replaced radio and newspapers as the medium of delivery.

If Chariots of Fire defined the ideal of amateur athletics, today college hockey players on full rides are the epitome of professionals in every sense of the word.

Somehow or other, the players, coaches, parents, fans are going to have adapt because technology and the ways in which we communicate are changing fast and furious.

I take it as a very positive sign that people are listening to the fans.

Puck Swami Rulez and Lets Go DU.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

You have some good points, Donald. My response here reflects a bigger issue. I do listen and I do have a thick skin, believe me. I've endured all manner of nasty and sometimes threatening letters, emails and even parental confrontations, some of them scary. I've always bounced back from these periodic personal episodes, but one unsigned letter I received this week is particularly concerning and has me currently in the process of reconsidering my entire participation here.

This year, more than any other, has seen more backlash against me than any other year before. I don't think the things I've written have been substantially more inflammatory now than in previous years, but I do think some people out there have clearly had their cumulative fill of me. As such, posting is much less fun/cathartic as it once was. If this were a college football or basketball board with hundreds of thousands posting opinions, I don't think people would bother much with one individual internet opinion. But in college hockey, where the viewership is tiny and the community somewhat insular, one voice can seem way more outsized then it really is...

I have posted on these boards for 15 years, with the last 11 under the current moniker. I've weathered plenty of praise and criticism, some of it warranted, some of it not. I've had a lot of fun here, and there's been difficult times too. I've dished it out in the most factual and informed way that I can, and I've tried to keep arguments to the content or idea, rather than get involved in emotional flamefests. I've tried to add insight and value, and I've met a lot of great people here over the years.

I suppose I could participate with more caution, less honest opinions and only provide positive commentary. But that just isn't me. I am just too passionate for that. God knows, I love my school, I love this game and I love this board and the community behind it. But when your honest opinions posted for entertainment and fun begin to have unforseen implications beyond a message board with people who matter, it might be time to find for me to find different ways to participate...

I have known Swami for decades. And his loyalty and dedication to DU in general the the hockey team in particular is beyond discussion. I am astonished to learn that his postings have generated confrontations and threats. How is that possible? He provides useful analysis. Analysis with which I don't always agree. Analysis which I've never thought was intentionally hurtful. His is one of the most valuable voices we have and it would be a shame to lose it because of unjustified emotional reactions from people who should know better. Is Swami a Pioneer Pollyanna? No. But he doesn't attack players personally, and not just to hear the sound of his own voice. Reasonable people can disagree about the right approach on these threads. But attacking Swami for his opinions is simply wrong. Swami and I belong to an organization that has a secret handshake. But that's not the case with being a DU fan. No membership card. No framed certificate. No rules and regulations. Just a love of the university and the team. And Swami has that in spades. I say again, losing Swami here would be a terrible loss. One which the people responsible for driving him away would come to regret.

 

[Pablo]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

I guess there are just some ***holez in the DU hockey community, as there are everywhere. Sometimes Swami's pessimistic predictions and stuff cause one to roll one's eyes...ever so slightly. But he always backs up his stuff with facts, and it's incomprehensible that someone would go to the trouble of sending him nasty letters, confronting him, etc. His criticisms of players are never personal, and never cross the line. I make an occasional snide comment about a player's performance, but Swami does it less than I do. He's just a more visible poster, and an easier target for trolls. There have been some of these trolls here over the years. They seem to be on the LetsgoDU board now, too. Hopefully these sad-sack miserable jerks find a hobby and go away, like they usually do.

Speaking of trolls, I have reached the happy point where I just totally gloss over Donald's posts. It's like my brain has decided that it will not occupy itself with such drivel. Therefore, I will no longer be able to analyze why he is obsessed with DU. Hopefully someone else can figure it out.

 

[dggoddard]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

It might be time to find for me to find different ways to participate...

You could re-enroll at USCHO under the moniker "osama bin swami"

 

[Old Pio]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

You could re-enroll at USCHO under the moniker "osama bin swami"

Now THAT's funny. For total anonymity he could call himself Piers Swami.

 

[co14ers]

Re: All Things Denver XXX

When Puck Swami jumps in a lake, Puck Swami doesn't get wet. The water gets Puck Swami.