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A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

The Daniel J. Morrell, which actually went down off the Thumb. It took years to find the stern, which ultimately ended up five miles from the site of the bow. The Detroit Free Press did an interview with the lone survivor about 15 years ago. He spent two days in a life raft and nearly died of exposure, but he was lucky enough to only lose his toes.

Wow. Another guy I've always felt for was Capt. McVeigh of the Indianapolis. The idea of the United States Navy bringing in a G.D. jap submarine captain to testify against one of our own makes me feel like throwing up in my mouth. Eventually he blew his brains out. Subsequently a young kid took up his case and McVeigh was cleared of dereliction. And thinking about those guys in the water, with the sharks, is really almost too horrible to contemplate.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

True dat. Somebody said 3rd class was just "ignored to death." And I think that has some merit. What if they had had multi-lingual evacuation instructions, like on airplanes? With instructions on how to get to the boats (even though there weren't nearly enough). The relevant regulations were written when ships were 10,000 tons. Titanic was four times bigger than that. And in the forty years before Titanic, only a tiny handful of passengers had lost their lives. All of the managers of White Star and the other lines thought life boats would be used to transfer passengers from a stricken ship to a rescue ship (like on the Andrea Doria) and just didn't think of the kind of thing that actually happened. And if Stanley Lord had done the right thing, that scenario of "ferrying" passengers in the boats might have come to be. Sadly, we'll never know.

The ship stayed afloat for about 2.5 hours after striking, it would have taken the California about 3/4 to 1 hour to make it to the site through the ice. I wonder if there would have been enough time to retrieve the survivors from the boats, return to the Titanic, and pull more survivors off before the ship made the final plunge. At the very least, more the the 1st class passengers would have gone in the the first wave (fewer half filled boats) and more could have still been pulled from the water.

Even if no additional lives would have been saved, that doesn't absolve Lord of his negligent inaction.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

The ship stayed afloat for about 2.5 hours after striking, it would have taken the California about 3/4 to 1 hour to make it to the site through the ice. I wonder if there would have been enough time to retrieve the survivors from the boats, return to the Titanic, and pull more survivors off before the ship made the final plunge. At the very least, more the the 1st class passengers would have gone in the the first wave (fewer half filled boats) and more could have still been pulled from the water.

Even if no additional lives would have been saved, that doesn't absolve Lord of his negligent inaction.

Exactly. And don't forget, many of the more vigorous passengers could have jumped and then been plucked from the water and warmed up. It's all speculation, of course, but the s.o.b. should have tried.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Exactly. And don't forget, many of the more vigorous passengers could have jumped and then been plucked from the water and warmed up. It's all speculation, of course, but the s.o.b. should have tried.

I'm sure that his decision to ignore the distress signals earned him a special place in hell for all the lives he didn't try to save.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I'm sure that his decision to ignore the distress signals earned him a special place in hell for all the lives he didn't try to save.

I understand the unthinking union goon type defense he's getting from them. But presumably serious people, creating scenarios about mystery ships and all the rest to let him off the hook really baffle me. I suppose it's a way of selling books, but it really muddies the pitch. If there were a Senate hearing today, I'm certain they'd follow up on those missing scrap log pages (which was not done by Senator Smith and the rest). You ask the officers of the watch, did you make notations about rockets in the log? Then ask Lord, what happened to those pages? Who but you would have the nerve to remove them, or a motive? And why is there no mention of those rockets in the fair log? Jack McCoy would call it "conscienceness of guilt."
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em sink!
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Where's the love for the Edmund Fitzgerald?! (tArrogance)

Honestly, it's a tragedy, but it was arrogance and stupidity that led to the tragedy that is Titanic.
The Fitz went down on my 1st birthday. I always give a listen to the Lightfoot song on my birthday, and when I can get one, I like to enjoy a Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald Porter.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Wow. Another guy I've always felt for was Capt. McVeigh of the Indianapolis. The idea of the United States Navy bringing in a G.D. jap submarine captain to testify against one of our own makes me feel like throwing up in my mouth. Eventually he blew his brains out. Subsequently a young kid took up his case and McVeigh was cleared of dereliction. And thinking about those guys in the water, with the sharks, is really almost too horrible to contemplate.
I have been led to believe that the Japanese Captain, although he did testify, found that to be highly distasteful as well.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I have been led to believe that the Japanese Captain, although he did testify, found that to be highly distasteful as well.

I don't doubt it. He was an officer. Code of Bushido and all. Still, a real stain on the honor of our Navy. And McVeigh's exoneration came too late for him. He was already dead by his own hand. As to those guys in the water, I don't want to think about it.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Time is a factor, a bigger issue is that life has evolved over millions of years to survive (and thrive) at the ocean depths. Microorganisms have evolved to scavenge on organic matter that would naturally sink to the ocean depth. The Great Lakes are freshwater and have only existed in there current form since the end of the last ice age, they may have not had the time to develop the microbial life needed to as effectively degrade organic matter.

Well, now there seems to be a difference of opinion about human remains at the Titanic wreck site.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-ap-us-titanic-human-remains,0,2417157.story
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Regardless of if you can identify a recognizable human body, the wreck is a grave site and should be treated as such.

That's what Bob Ballard thinks. Now I'm reading about plans to "preserve" the wreck, because in time it will simply disappear. I'm curious about the technology and what I suspect would be an enormous expense. If it came down to a choice between Jerry Brown's high speed rail project or preserving the wreck, that would be an easy one to decide.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

That's what Bob Ballard thinks. Now I'm reading about plans to "preserve" the wreck, because in time it will simply disappear. I'm curious about the technology and what I suspect would be an enormous expense. If it came down to a choice between Jerry Brown's high speed rail project or preserving the wreck, that would be an easy one to decide.

I wonder if he regrets not claiming international salvage rights from when he discovered the wreck given what has happened to the wreck site in the last 27 years.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

To claim rights though, all he needed to do was bring one small thing up, but he didn't want to do even that. Rather let it all lie as it was, but greedy bastids looking to make a buck won't let it be so.
 
Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

From research it would seem 1st class tickets were no more than $275 US back then. Still trying to read up on whether or not passengers were ever held back on lower decks.
 
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Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Couple things - my son swears first class tickets were no more than $275 at the time and from research it appears passengers from lower decks were held below for quite some time.

Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).
 
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Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).

As I've said, Cameron's film is "history" primarily in its extraordinarily accurate recreation of the ship and what life was like on it. As to the realities of the disaster, there are wide gaps. 100 years later and cops in London generally aren't armed, yet Cameron has a teen age steward not only armed, but shooting passengers. He absolutely smears Mr. Murdoch, who certainly made an error in judgement in turning the wheel hard over and reversing the engines. But Cameron has him shooting passengers, taking a bribe and generally behaving like a swine, not one atom of which comports with survivor testimony. And for those, like Cameron, who keep flogging the class distinction chimera, it's worth repeating over and over the fact that 3rd class women and children had a better chance of surviving than 1st class men.

As I posted earlier, it's really a shame that this film, like Stone's "JFK", has become the template which millions of us who aren't fascinated by these tragedies use to make our judgements about what "really" happened. In Stone's case, it's just about everything claimed. In Cameron's it's what he included and what he left out: Californian, Carpathia, etc. Cameron, as I've posted, recreated exactly the carpeting in the First Class dining room. How could such attention to detail leave him willing to smear a hero (Murdoch) who gave his life trying to help passengers get off safely in the boats? Surely he should have had as much desire to treat Murdoch accurately as he did in the carpeting. Evidently not. A real shame.

What films like "Titanic" and "JFK" in theory accomplish is to interest folks in the subject enough to get them to want to know more and to do some reading. And I'm certain that happened in both cases. However, these were two magnificently made, enormously entertaining films which probably induced far greater numbers into thinking how accurate they were. Ironically causing their misrepresentations to be unnoticed, ignored or excused by credulous people. My niece, her husband and I saw "Titanic" together and many of the scenes were just stupifying, particularly the getting underway sequence, and especially the engine room. And all that life aboard ship stuff. I found myself saying "look at that," more than once. Yet once the collision happened, I found myself telling them that didn't happen and that didn't happen quite a lot.. Cameron had a great opportunity, $200 million dollar budget, and he really missed his chance. He wasn't making a documentary, but it seems to me he had a responibility to tell the truth and not make up stuff. The truth of that story is enough to make it "a night to remember." Wallace Hartley and the other musicians continuing to play in the face of certain death. Hundreds of crewmen who labored on, keeping her floating with the lights on as long as possible, also in the face of certain death. Mr. and Mrs. Strauss. Benjamin Guggenheim who was adamant that no woman was going to die because he got a place in a lifeboat: "We have dressed in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen." The steward who gave Minnie Coutts his lifebelt and said: "There madame, if you are saved, pray for me."

BTW, your contributions here have been terrific, having at least one Titanicophile among the posters made my decision to start this thread worthwhile. Thanks.
 
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Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Your son is wrong on both. The most expensive first class tickets were for the two Parlor suites (as seen in the movie Titanic) which were about $5k (about $80k in today) and that was only one-way. The third class were not kept below, but information was not as quickly or effectively disseminated, 47% of the women and children in third class made it to the lifeboats and survived (this was a higher percentage than the first class male passengers at 31%).


http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=16
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=17
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5660/90776.html?1284863221
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5660/83842.html?1072777463

While there were some parlor suites that went for around $4k those were very rare, but I should have been careful in stating the most common prices.

Also your numbers about survivors mean little - men stood back across the board. There was evidence given at the inquiry that suggests that initially some of the gates (which existed for fear of spreading disease) remained locked for some time up until (it's believed) the first lifeboat began being lowered.

Here's one account anyway: http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-survivor/catherine-kate-murphy.html
 
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Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=16
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/manifest.php?q=17
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5660/90776.html?1284863221
http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5660/83842.html?1072777463

While there were some parlor suites that went for around $4k those were very rare but I should have been careful in stating the most common prices. And I wasn't referring to Cameron's movie for questions about passengers being held back. Give me some credit. Ratio of survivors:

RATIO of SURVIVORS
Women & Children Men Total
First Class 94% 31% 60%
Second Class 81% 10% 44%
Third Class 47% 14% 25%
Crew 87% 22% 24%

Those figures do not prove that at no point were any passengers held back (men remained on board in all classes) - it was a big fukking boat.

I assumed you weren't relying on Cameron. There were two parlor suites, one port one starbord. each of which had a long, private stretch of the boat deck. Absolutely unheard of in that day. And J. P. Morgan (the owner of I. M. M. which actually owned the White Star Line) was scheduled to occupy one but changed his plans at the last moment.

And that link to "Bob" indicates there are some gaps in his knowledge. When he says the Titanic was about as luxurious as other big steamers of the day, he's just wrong. Cunard, because of loans and other business connections with the government, had superior power plants in the Lusitania and Mauretania. They were built for speed. The Titanic and her sisters were built for comfort, luxury, capacity and opulence. Titanic had the first a la Carte restaurant ever on a ship. Captain Smith ate there frequently. Titanic had a Palm Court, with wicker furniture and palm trees, and actual French waiters to complete the illusion. A mind boggling selection of decors in the first class cabins, the magnificent "grand stair case," swimming pool, gymnasium and a host of other features that were either unique to her or bigger and better than comparable facilities on other ships. She was definitely a step up from what was available elsewhere. 2nd class on Titanic was the equal of 1st class on many other ships.

Far more problematic for 3rd class passengers reaching the boat deck was their distance from it and the layout of the ship. There is no convincing evidence any gate was "locked."
 
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