A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

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Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

When I was in college, I played in the pit orchestra for the playhouse's production of Titanic.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

some of the shipwrecks in Lake Superior are in water so deep and cold, the bodies don't decompose. divers have found them still bobbing around in the pilot houses, etc of the ships.

I've not been much into the Titanic, but we recently watched a special on the engineering staff. it got me interested. several of the second class passengers were heading to Houghton. Cornish and Swedes mostly.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

some of the shipwrecks in Lake Superior are in water so deep and cold, the bodies don't decompose. divers have found them still bobbing around in the pilot houses, etc of the ships.

I've not been much into the Titanic, but we recently watched a special on the engineering staff. it got me interested. several of the second class passengers were heading to Houghton. Cornish and Swedes mostly.

The Titanic and her sisters (Olympic and Britannic) were so plush that second class on them was comparable to first class on some other ships. There were two so-called parlor suites, each with a private section of the boat deck (this is what Rose and her boyfriend occupied in the movie). Price for a one way ticket in these suites? $4,200. What on earth would that be in 2012 dollars?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Metallurgy classes suggest otherwise.

I assume you're referring to documentaries and articles that found the steel used in her hull was inferior to the steel of today. To me that's not especially surprising. Remember, the steel used in the Titanic's hull was up to the standards of the day, not some unique cheapo product which singularly doomed the ship. Since I don't have that metallurgy expert Rosie O'Donnell to ask, do you think a vessel today would survive an identical accident? That is, would the hull be damaged in the way the Titanic's was? I read somewhere that the estimated combined size of the various small punctures of the hull to be nine square feet. Sounds pretty benign, doesn't it?

The berg damaged the hull along 300 feet and even though it wasn't the "gash" described for decades (if that were the case, she would have gone down like a rock) it put water in those first five compartments and doomed her, especially since the bulkheads only went up to D deck. That conversation where builder Thomas Andrews tells Captain Smith the ship is doomed absolutely took place. Andrews told Smith the ship had an hour and a half, perhaps two, to live. He was off by half an hour, because the crew did a remarkable job with the pumps to try to keep the water down.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

some of the shipwrecks in Lake Superior are in water so deep and cold, the bodies don't decompose. divers have found them still bobbing around in the pilot houses, etc of the ships.

I've not been much into the Titanic, but we recently watched a special on the engineering staff. it got me interested. several of the second class passengers were heading to Houghton. Cornish and Swedes mostly.

That's an interesting and sad fact. No human remains are left at the Titanic wreck site. I wonder why. Can the Great Lakes be deeper/colder than the north Atlantic? Is it a function of salinity? Or the passage of time?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

You and Old Pio both have good points, and they aren't mutually exclusive. The ship was fine. Arrogance was certainly a part of it, but so was ignorance. In my field the saying goes "the rules and regulations are written in blood". I just sat through an entire lesson plan about low level wind shear and our alert system in the tower cab because 27 years ago Delta 191 crashed short of Dallas-Fort Worth on final approach because of a microburst during a thunderstorm. Hell, my job exists because two came together over the Grand Canyon.

I remember that accident very well. And that Caesar Belli, the son of that swine lawyer Melvin Belli, came all the way from San Francisco and checked into the hotel where the family members were quartered that night, because there are potential customers, don't you know?

And I'm old enough to remember that accident over the Grand Canyon. I believe at the time it was the greatest loss of life ever. And, IIRC was exceeded by that horrific accident in the Canary Islands, where some fool managed to vector two 747's into the same space at the same time. Nicely done. That airport ain't exactly O'Hare.

They were certainly very casual about the ice. Common sense would seem to suggest that when ice warnings came in, they'd get plotted on a chart. Push pins, or something. If they had done that, they would have realized they were heading into an enormous ice field, much further south than customary. Captain Smith even showed his dinner guests one of the ice warnings. On the other hand, not slowing down was apparantly the way things were done. They were confident they'd see a berg in plenty of time because it was a clear, calm night.

When Fred Fleet told Mr. Murdoch "ice berg right ahead," Murdoch ordered the wheel hard over and reversed the engines, essentially slamming on the brakes. The Titanic was a triple screw ship, with the middle prop directly over the rudder--to make it more efficient. However, that center prop drew its power from the other two, and when he slammed the engines in reverse, that center prop stopped turning, making the rudder less efficient. Also, seamanship books of the day cautioned NOT to reverse the engines. The recommendation (in the Titanic's case) would be to reverse the port engine and full speed ahead on the starboard. In other words, the port engine would "pull" the bow to the left, while the starboard engine would "push" it to the left. And all the while that center screw would be pushing water over the rudder. Conclusion? If Murdoch had done that, they probably would have missed the berg altogether.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

What would we do without the internet?

http://failbook.failblog.org/2010/09/21/funny-facebook-fails-classic-titanic-trash-talk/

even better . . .

http://www.funnyordie.com/pictures/...was-real?playlist=featured_pictures_and_words

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

That's an interesting and sad fact. No human remains are left at the Titanic wreck site. I wonder why. Can the Great Lakes be deeper/colder than the north Atlantic? Is it a function of salinity? Or the passage of time?

I think with Titanic, a lot of people were tossed into the drink when the ship went down, and as you mentioned, a good number of the bodies were recovered. The ones that weren't most likely drifted far from the wreck site.

The story huskyfan is referencing is probably the Kamloops, which went down in 1927 off Isle Royale. When John Steele found her 1977, he ran into body of the second engineer floating in the engine room, which is around 270 feet down. What happens is, when a human body is immersed at such depth for long periods of time, layers of fat work their way to the surface and form a chalky/waxy substance that protects the skin. Since the guy was entombed in the engine room, his body never floated away and broke up. I heard the body was finally recovered and returned to his surviving family for burial a couple years ago, but I don't know if it's true. That would be a difficult and risky undertaking for any dive team due to the depth.

There are likely a few bodies like this in the bowels of the Edmund Fitzgerald as well, but it's unlikely anyone will ever see them. Nor should they, IMHO.

 

[walrus]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I assume you're referring to documentaries and articles that found the steel used in her hull was inferior to the steel of today. .

It happened during Lend Lease in WW2 also, lots of boats went down when the cold temps made the steel brittle.

As far what would happen with todays steel, I don't know, I remember my metallurgy class talking about steels back then and it wasn't nearly as good as it is today.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

It happened during Lend Lease in WW2 also, lots of boats went down when the cold temps made the steel brittle.

As far what would happen with todays steel, I don't know, I remember my metallurgy class talking about steels back then and it wasn't nearly as good as it is today.

The tone of those programs was that the discovery that steel from 80 or 90 years ago wasn't as pure and strong as it is today was some sort of revelation. It didn't strike me that way. What manufactured product hasn't been improved upon? What would have been important is if they had discovered that somebody's brother in law had been given the contract to making the steel plates for the hull, despite having a record of producing an inferior product.

What was not generally understood back in '12 was just how "titanic" the forces were when a 46 thousand ton object strikes an ice berg, even a glancing blow, moving at or near full speed. My own, completely unprofessional, guess would be that a modern vessel would likely come away from an identical encounter with a berg in far better shape than the Titanic did. And probably wouldn't be doomed.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Even the Andrea Doria is more interesting to me, since the blame for the collision is still disputed to this day.

There were only fifty one deaths. That's it? I thought it was like a thousand! That's no tragedy! How many people do you lose on a normal cruise? 30? 40?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I think with Titanic, a lot of people were tossed into the drink when the ship went down, and as you mentioned, a good number of the bodies were recovered. The ones that weren't most likely drifted far from the wreck site.

The story huskyfan is referencing is probably the Kamloops, which went down in 1927 off Isle Royale. When John Steele found her 1977, he ran into body of the second engineer floating in the engine room, which is around 270 feet down. What happens is, when a human body is immersed at such depth for long periods of time, layers of fat work their way to the surface and form a chalky/waxy substance that protects the skin. Since the guy was entombed in the engine room, his body never floated away and broke up. I heard the body was finally recovered and returned to his surviving family for burial a couple years ago, but I don't know if it's true. That would be a difficult and risky undertaking for any dive team due to the depth.

There are likely a few bodies like this in the bowels of the Edmund Fitzgerald as well, but it's unlikely anyone will ever see them. Nor should they, IMHO.

Makes sense. In the case of the Titanic, given the amount of time between the collision and when she actually foundered, it's probable just about everyone who was able to get on deck, had done so. And even if there were remains down there, the great depth and the enormous size of the wreck would make discovering them nearly impossible.

Jeez, imagine answering a knock at the door and some guy's there, telling you they've found your grandfather's body 50 years after his ship went down. Gaaaak.

 

[Almington]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

That's an interesting and sad fact. No human remains are left at the Titanic wreck site. I wonder why. Can the Great Lakes be deeper/colder than the north Atlantic? Is it a function of salinity? Or the passage of time?

Time is a factor, a bigger issue is that life has evolved over millions of years to survive (and thrive) at the ocean depths. Microorganisms have evolved to scavenge on organic matter that would naturally sink to the ocean depth. The Great Lakes are freshwater and have only existed in there current form since the end of the last ice age, they may have not had the time to develop the microbial life needed to as effectively degrade organic matter.

 

[walrus]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

The tone of those programs was that the discovery that steel from 80 or 90 years ago wasn't as pure and strong as it is today was some sort of revelation.

Its the way steel is made and the composition of the steel. Depending on whats in it and how its treated a chunk of steel that looks really strong can be broken easily.

What was not generally understood back in '12 was just how "titanic" the forces were when a 46 thousand ton object strikes an ice berg, even a glancing blow, moving at or near full speed. My own, completely unprofessional, guess would be that a modern vessel would likely come away from an identical encounter with a berg in far better shape than the Titanic did. And probably wouldn't be doomed.

Probably so, better pumps might make a difference also

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

the Fitz has a least a few bodies. a rogue dive about 15-20 years ago discovered them, took pictures. family members went ballastic. Canada since passed a law about diving the wreck. I don't think the pics were ever released to the public.

yes, it was the Kamloops. I had heard the stories, but was a bit skeptical. ran into the Isle Royale superintendent at a party and asked her if it was true. she confirmed. I think the bodies are still down there.

the wreck of the Bradley has always fascinated me. and there was another one up near the straits where the boat broke in two. the bow went down and the stern kept going, lights on for awhile. another boat's crew saw it.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

how big was the "gash" to the Titanic? had pictured it being huge. wasn't the iceberg they hit actually under the water? why didn't anyone see it ahead of time?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

There were only fifty one deaths. That's it? I thought it was like a thousand! That's no tragedy! How many people do you lose on a normal cruise? 30? 40?

Captain Calamai and his crew stayed aboard until all of the survivors were rescued. Calamai never went to sea again, comparing the loss of the Doria to the loss of a son.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

the amount of info on the Titanic is incredible. perhaps not all credible. but lots of it.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

how big was the "gash" to the Titanic? had pictured it being huge. wasn't the iceberg they hit actually under the water? why didn't anyone see it ahead of time?

For many years the conventional wisdom was that she had sustained a 300 foot long "gash." Actually, if that had happened, she would have gone down like a rock. Instead, the damage occurred over three hundred feet but was a series of small damage: a plate buckled here, some rivets popped there, a small penetration there. The Titanic almost missed the berg entirely, it was just a glancing blow.

Most of an iceberg is under water. One of the unanswered questions: if the lookout had had bincoculars, would they have seen the berg earlier? For some reason, the binoculars had disappeared. And there's a difference of opinion as to whether they would have made any difference.

The night was clear and calm. So they should have been able to spot the berg in enough time to avoid hitting it. If there was fog or haze presumably they would have slowed down. There is speculation that the berg they hit was a so-called "black berg," which somehow inverts and presents a dark side, rather than the snowy top side, making it far easier to spot. Lookouts were chosen for their keen eyesight and paid extra. Fred Fleet, who first saw the berg, survived the night and many years later commited suicide. I think now we'd realize he was probably a victim of PTSD. Imagine, he spent the rest of his life wondering if 1500 people died because he was a second or two slow in seeing the berg.

There is a photo taken the next day of a berg with streaks of red paint on it, which almost certainly is the fatal berg.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

the amount of info on the Titanic is incredible. perhaps not all credible. but lots of it.

Over 200 books, half a dozen movies and innumerable TV documentaries and articles. Many of the early, eyewitness accounts, had the ship breaking in two. "Experts" claimed that wasn't true. And it wasn't until Bob Ballard found the wreck that we learned these survivors had had it right all along. 17-year old survivor Jack Thayer provided detailed drawings of the break up.