A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Its the way steel is made and the composition of the steel. Depending on whats in it and how its treated a chunk of steel that looks really strong can be broken easily.

Probably so, better pumps might make a difference also

Her pumps worked well, they just weren't up to handling the amount of water. Again, five compartments were taking water, all at the same time.

 

[Almington]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

What was not generally understood back in '12 was just how "titanic" the forces were when a 46 thousand ton object strikes an ice berg, even a glancing blow, moving at or near full speed. My own, completely unprofessional, guess would be that a modern vessel would likely come away from an identical encounter with a berg in far better shape than the Titanic did. And probably wouldn't be doomed.

Helps that ships after the Titanic have much better compartmentalization as of a result of the sinking. If the Titanic had the full compartmentalization of modern vessels, the ship would most likely have not sunk (everyone may still have needed to be rescued off the crippled ship).

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Helps that ships after the Titanic have much better compartmentalization as of a result of the sinking. If the Titanic had the full compartmentalization of modern vessels, the ship would most likely have not sunk (everyone may still have needed to be rescued off the crippled ship).

The Andrea Doria stayed up for 11 hours, more than enough time for survivors to be rescued. In the case of the Titanic, there was another ship that saw the white distress rockets being fired and did nothing. The Californian and her captain were condemned by both the American and British inquiries. To this day there is controversy among Titanic historians as to whether Captain Lord of the Californian screwed the pooch. His supporters are called "Lordites," and they have constructed various elaborate explanations for his inaction. They claim that between the Californian and Titanic that night there were two other ships. One of which, for reasons not understood, fired eight white rockets and sailed away.

The Titanic fired 8 white rockets and 8 white rockets were seen on the Californian. And those rockets were reported to Captain Lord at least three times. And he did. . .nothing. All he had to do was wake up his Marconi guy and he would have learned of the distress calls coming from Titanic. And even if there was a mystery ship out there firing rockets, that just means Lord let some OTHER poor dumb b*stards to meet their fate. Pages from the Californians' scrap log for that night are missing and the fair log (the official description of what happened, written by the captain) makes no mention of the rockets.

Lord looks particularly bad in comparison to Arthur Rostron, captain of the rescue ship Carpathia. Rostron's nickname was "the electric spark." And when his radio kid (they were all very young) came to the bridge with the message that the Titanic needed assistance, they were putting the women and children into the boats, and here's the position, Rostron immediately ordered his ship to put about and head for those co-ordinates. He then told the kid to go back to the radio room and confirm the message. 90 percent of captains would have done it the other way 'round. Rostron realized if people were being put into boats, he needed to get there ASAP. Rostron headed full speed into the ice field, and after he'd pulled the survivors out of the boats, seeing ice bergs all over the place, wondered whether God had allowed him to penetrate the ice field without striking one of those bergs.

 

[Almington]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

The Andrea Doria stayed up for 11 hours, more than enough time for survivors to be rescued. In the case of the Titanic, there was another ship that saw the white distress rockets being fired and did nothing. The Californian and her captain were condemned by both the American and British inquiries. To this day there is controversy among Titanic historians as to whether Captain Lord of the Californian screwed the pooch. His supporters are called "Lordites," and they have constructed various elaborate explanations for his inaction. They claim that between the Californian and Titanic that night there were two other ships. One of which, for reasons not understood, fired eight white rockets and sailed away.

The Titanic fired 8 white rockets and 8 white rockets were seen on the Californian. And those rockets were reported to Captain Lord at least three times. And he did. . .nothing. All he had to do was wake up his Marconi guy and he would have learned of the distress calls coming from Titanic. And even if there was a mystery ship out there firing rockets, that just means Lord let some OTHER poor dumb b*stards to meet their fate. Pages from the Californians' scrap log for that night are missing and the fair log (the official description of what happened, written by the captain) makes no mention of the rockets.

Lord looks particularly bad in comparison to Arthur Rostron, captain of the rescue ship Carpathia. Rostron's nickname was "the electric spark." And when his radio kid (they were all very young) came to the bridge with the message that the Titanic needed assistance, they were putting the women and children into the boats, and here's the position, Rostron immediately ordered his ship to put about and head for those co-ordinates. He then told the kid to go back to the radio room and confirm the message. 90 percent of captains would have done it the other way 'round. Rostron realized if people were being put into boats, he needed to get there ASAP. Rostron headed full speed into the ice field, and after he'd pulled the survivors out of the boats, seeing ice bergs all over the place, wondered whether God had allowed him to penetrate the ice field without striking one of those bergs.

Sadly much of the controversy over Lord's (in)action have caused Rostron's actions to be downplayed and forgotten.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

did any of those in the water survive?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Sadly much of the controversy over Lord's (in)action have caused Rostron's actions to be downplayed and forgotten.

I agree. At the time, everyone realized how heroically he acted. He was given a Congressional Gold Medal, was similarly decorated by the Commons and there's a picture of him being given a loving cup by Molly Brown. Somehow he was able to get three or four knots more out of the Carpathia than she was rated for. And he slewed around in that ice field, going at full speed, dodging ice bergs to get to where the Titanic had gone down. As he approached the area, he began firing green rockets, to let the survivors know help had arrived. Imagine how those survivors felt, they had seen an unimaginable tragedy, many had lost husbands, bobbing around in tiny boats in the dark, when suddenly a ship comes roaring over the horizon, firing rockets. If Roston had been captain of the Californian, there's a reasonable chance many if not most of the Titanic victims could have been saved. We'll never know for sure.

In his book "The Night Lives On," Walter Lord (no relation) talks about the Californian incident and destroys Captain Lord's excuses and defenders with one observation: "Rockets are rockets." I believe he didn't wake up his radio operator because it gave him plausible deniability of what was going on. The nautical equivalent of a kid sticking his fingers in his ears saying "I can't hear you." To me, there is only one explanation as to why the pages for April 14 and 15 are missing from the scrap log and there's no mention of rockets in the fair log: Lord was covering his a*s. To this day, Lord's reputation is protected by the master's union, which actually threatens historians and writers who might actually tell the truth about his gross dereliction of duty.

One thing is for certain: "Lordites" absolutely do not want to hear speculation about what would have happened if Rostron was master of the Californian.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

did any of those in the water survive?

I'm not sure. Many of the lifeboats left the Titanic only partially filled. Some with just a handfull of passengers. None rowed back.

 

[Spartanforlife4]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Captain Calamai and his crew stayed aboard until all of the survivors were rescued. Calamai never went to sea again, comparing the loss of the Doria to the loss of a son.

I take it you don't watch Seinfeld.

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[Almington]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

did any of those in the water survive?

A handful, 30 or so ended up on each of the collapsible boats, but only about 10 were pulled from the water by the life boats. Most feared that the desperate people in the water would capsize the boats if they tried to rescue anyone. I have to imagine that the slowly dwindling cries from those in the water had to haunt some of the survivors for the rest of their lives. Boat 4 was the closest and a few managed to swim and were pulled out. Boat 14 transferred all of the survivors to other boats and made a rescue attempt, but by then there were very few survivors left alive in the water.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

A handful, 30 or so ended up on each of the collapsible boats, but only about 10 were pulled from the water by the life boats. Most feared that the desperate people in the water would capsize the boats if they tried to rescue anyone. I have to imagine that the slowly dwindling cries from those in the water had to haunt some of the survivors for the rest of their lives.

Mr. Lightoller wound up on one of those collapsibles as did the surviving wireless operator, Harold Bride. Years later, when the Brits needed help getting their troops back from Dunkirk, Lightoller volunteered his 60 footer "Sundowner," to help in the evacuation. They were reluctant because of Lightoller's age. They obviously didn't realize who they were talking to, and the old boy told 'em he had survived the Titanic, and a little jaunt across the Channel was no big deal. He successfully pulled some troops out of there. Tough old boy.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

A handful, 30 or so ended up on each of the collapsible boats, but only about 10 were pulled from the water by the life boats. Most feared that the desperate people in the water would capsize the boats if they tried to rescue anyone. I have to imagine that the slowly dwindling cries from those in the water had to haunt some of the survivors for the rest of their lives. Boat 4 was the closest and a few managed to swim and were pulled out. Boat 14 transferred all of the survivors to other boats and made a rescue attempt, but by then there were very few survivors left alive in the water.

It didn't take long to succumb to that very very cold water. Probably all sorts of things were going through the minds of the survivors in the boats. But you're certainly right that at least some of the time they had to recall that horrible wailing from about 1500 people who were freezing to death.

 

[rufus]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

Its the way steel is made and the composition of the steel. Depending on whats in it and how its treated a chunk of steel that looks really strong can be broken easily.

Thought I read somewhere, or it was one of those "How it Sank"-type documentaries, that focused not so much on the steel plates, but the rivets holding them together. That they were the inferior steel, and so when it hit the iceberg and dragged along it, those rivets just popped, the plates bent and were pushed in, and allowed the water to penetrate through the seams.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I found this after search for Jack Thayer. Interesting read.

Titanic's Last Minutes

Also: http://www.titanic-titanic.com/index.shtml

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

I found this after search for Jack Thayer. Interesting read.

Titanic's Last Minutes

Also: http://www.titanic-titanic.com/index.shtml

Thanks for posting that. Although it'll take my thick head a while to understand all of those data. For sure, Jack Thayer was one impressive teenager. His drawings were remarkable, if not exactly technically correct.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

that's one impressive website!

so the stories (I think this was in the movie?) of locking the third class passengers below is NOT true?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

that's one impressive website!

so the stories (I think this was in the movie?) of locking the third class passengers below is NOT true?

No. And the notion that a teenage steward would not only be armed but would actually shoot passengers is from cloud cuckoo land.

The 3rd class accomodations were a long way from the boat deck, in the bow and stern. There was no PA system and no alarm bell or siren to let passengers know that it was time to beat feet. The boat deck was the 1st class promenade. Some of them actually thought these were "our" boats. 1st class passengers were notified of the trouble by polite knocks on their state room doors (and a far higher ratio of stewards and such in 1st). 3rd class passengers were notified in a less dignified and efficient way. No doubt the layout of the ship made it harder for 3rd class passengers to get to the boats. Even so, a higher percentage of 3rd class women survived than did 1st class men.

By the standards of the day, the 3rd class accomodations on the Titanic and her sister, the Olympic, were absolute luxury. And comparable in many respects to 2nd class accomodations on other ships. Many of these folks had never used indoor plumbing and had spent much of their lives wondering where their next meal was coming from. 3rd class menus reveal nourishing good food and plenty of it. Not the elaborate fare offered in 1st. class of course, but things like pork roast and all the trimmings. I would guess the overwhelming majority of those passengers were eating better than they ever had, and thought they were living very high on the hog.

It occurs to me that Cameron's movie and Oliver Stone's "JFK" play similar roles in our culture. They've become sort of primary references for millions of us. Trouble is, Cameron's film, as technically marvelous as it is, focuses too much on the fictional stuff than on the actual events of the sinking. While Stone's movie is a tissue of conspiracy blather, lies and exagerrations. Both are great entertainment, but questionable history (especially in the case of "JFK").

 

[Almington]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

The 3rd class accomodations were a long way from the boat deck, in the bow and stern. There was no PA system and no alarm bell or siren to let passengers know that it was time to beat feet. The boat deck was the 1st class promenade. Some of them actually thought these were "our" boats. 1st class passengers were notified of the trouble by polite knocks on their state room doors (and a far higher ratio of stewards and such in 1st). 3rd class passengers were notified in a less dignified and efficient way. No doubt the layout of the ship made it harder for 3rd class passengers to get to the boats. Even so, a higher percentage of 3rd class women survived than did 1st class men.

A significant number of 3rd class passengers also didn't speak English, those who did survived at a much higher rate than those who didn't.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

A significant number of 3rd class passengers also didn't speak English, those who did survived at a much higher rate than those who didn't.

True dat. Somebody said 3rd class was just "ignored to death." And I think that has some merit. What if they had had multi-lingual evacuation instructions, like on airplanes? With instructions on how to get to the boats (even though there weren't nearly enough). The relevant regulations were written when ships were 10,000 tons. Titanic was four times bigger than that. And in the forty years before Titanic, only a tiny handful of passengers had lost their lives. All of the managers of White Star and the other lines thought life boats would be used to transfer passengers from a stricken ship to a rescue ship (like on the Andrea Doria) and just didn't think of the kind of thing that actually happened. And if Stanley Lord had done the right thing, that scenario of "ferrying" passengers in the boats might have come to be. Sadly, we'll never know.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

there was another one up near the straits where the boat broke in two. the bow went down and the stern kept going, lights on for awhile. another boat's crew saw it.

The Daniel J. Morrell, which actually went down off the Thumb. It took years to find the stern, which ultimately ended up five miles from the site of the bow. The Detroit Free Press did an interview with the lone survivor about 15 years ago. He spent two days in a life raft and nearly died of exposure, but he was lucky enough to only lose his toes.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: A Century Later and The Titanic Hasn't Lost its Grip on Us

just spent the last hour reading through biographies of the different folks on board. fascinating!