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2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

FreshFish said:
Yes indeed. and who has been most vocal in the past several years about the dangers of an obtrusive government? and how have they been treated by said intrusive government?

Assuming you do have a sense of moral consistency, which I believe you do, and you think that it is wrong for people to suffer discrimination based on race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religious belief, isn't it also wrong to be discriminated against based on political belief?

you talk about shadenfreude. groups that say "be careful not to let government grow too large and influential" are disproportionately singled out by said government for extra scrutiny? please tell me you are not okay with that. I surely won't be laughing in 2017 if the Republicans control the House, Senate, and White House and start using the various organs of government disproportionately to make life difficult for the left!
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I would be very much against discrimination based on political belief. I'm not aware of any extra scrutiny placed on groups like the ACLU, but I'm sure it happens. Just like our phone calls, emails and credit card bills are collected by the government (actually, collected by corporations, but available for use by the government whenever it wants)
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Priceless said:
I would be very much against discrimination based on political belief. I'm not aware of any extra scrutiny placed on groups like the ACLU, but I'm sure it happens. Just like our phone calls, emails and credit card bills are collected by the government (actually, collected by corporations, but available for use by the government whenever it wants)
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Notice the Clintonian construction of that sentence. "I would be very much against discrimination based on belief." Suggesting there hasn't been any. It's just "bad customer service" all those "rogue agents" in Cincinnati singled out Tea Party type groups for "special handling." As to "extra scrutiny" on the ACLU. You're "sure it happens" but offer no examples. Hard to buy, given that their former counsel sits on SCOTUS.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Old Pio said:
Really? Extra scrutiny on the ACLU? Really? Examples? Or just paranoia? Hard to buy, given that their former counsel sits on SCOTUS.
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Did you fall and hit your head? I said I wasn't aware of any extra scrutiny on the ACLU and I'm not. I do think it happens to the ACLU and every other group out there to a certain degree but I am not aware of any claims currently.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Priceless said:
Did you fall and hit your head? I said I wasn't aware of any extra scrutiny on the ACLU and I'm not. I do think it happens to the ACLU and every other group out there to a certain degree but I am not aware of any claims currently.
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So you're just smearing on spec?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Old Pio said:
Try re-reading your lamentations. I'm sure something will come to you.
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Will this work?
[20] Res. Behold, O Lord, for I am in distress, my bowels are troubled: my heart is turned within me, for I am full of bitterness: abroad the sword destroyeth, and at home there is death alike.
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:D
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Priceless said:
I would be very much against discrimination based on political belief. I'm not aware of any extra scrutiny placed on groups like the ACLU, but I'm sure it happens.
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Disingenuous smokescreen of the year nominee right here, folks! well-played. you dodged that one nicely.
 
Old Pio said:
SCOTUS has ruled those records aren't private. Obviously you're not required to agree with the wise 9. But you have no expectation of privacy here. Again, the distinction is between knowing who you called and when and for how long and actually listening in. They need a warrant for that. These billions of records are rarely utilized. The Fed is big, but hardly big enough to check how many times you dialed your bank to verify your checking account balance.

Hypothetical abuse is not the same as actual abuse. We've had actual abuse by the IRS. So far, not here.

Some of us are struggling to be consistent here, even if it appears that we're arguing against our customary political positions. Rover's argument, on the other hand, seems to be "Obama's an a*shole, but he's our a*shole." I think we'll have to delay that Mt. Rushmore discussion for a bit.
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My customary political position would be one of general mistrust that the government can monitor itself. What keeps a company from connecting credit bureaus, other personal information, phone numbers etc and using them inappropriately? Regulations and penalties. I'm sure they'd love to do more than they are allowed, and some break the barriers, intentionally and unintentionally.

The patterns that are developed are the part that concerns me the most...what prevents the government from hiring 500 smart people to derive patterns showing a likelihood of child porn, mass shootings, tax cheating, drug dealing etc. and applying those models everyday to all new and existing calls in an effort to "make us safer"?

We might want them to stop pedophiles, but the line between that and the next thing is less clear and the government has not shown it can monitor itself, if it even wanted to in this case.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

pirate said:
My customary political position would be one of general mistrust that the government can monitor itself. ... the government has not shown it can monitor itself, if it even wanted to
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to pirate again.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

FreshFish said:
Disingenuous smokescreen of the year nominee right here, folks! well-played. you dodged that one nicely.
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Please. Your "I'm just asking questions" dodge contains enough disingenuity for everyone here.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

pirate said:
My customary political position would be one of general mistrust that the government can monitor itself. What keeps a company from connecting credit bureaus, other personal information, phone numbers etc and using them inappropriately? Regulations and penalties. I'm sure they'd love to do more than they are allowed, and some break the barriers, intentionally and unintentionally.

The patterns that are developed are the part that concerns me the most...what prevents the government from hiring 500 smart people to derive patterns showing a likelihood of child porn, mass shootings, tax cheating, drug dealing etc. and applying those models everyday to all new and existing calls in an effort to "make us safer"?

We might want them to stop pedophiles, but the line between that and the next thing is less clear and the government has not shown it can monitor itself, if it even wanted to in this case.
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There's no question we should be alert to the possibility of abuse. That's the value the ACLU and other privacy guardians bring to the discussion. In this case, I'm not seeing any abuse. I'm not arguing that abuse isn't possible, only that is hasn't been established here. I don't find the mere collection of these data, 99.99% of which will never be accessed, to be prima facie evidence of abuse.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Could there be a 51st state not named Puerto Rico?

Weld County's bid to divorce Colorado and form its own state is a powerful rebuke of Front Range interests that no longer align with rural parts of the state, supporters of the idea say.

"The people of rural Colorado are mad, and they have every right to be," said U.S. Rep. Cory Gardner, a Republican from Yuma. "The governor and his Democrat colleagues in the statehouse have assaulted our way of life, and I don't blame these people one bit for feeling attacked and unrepresented by the leaders of our state."

The plan to carve off the northeastern corner of the state — Weld, Morgan, Logan, Sedgwick, Phillips, Washington, Yuma and Kit Carson counties — and form the state of North Colorado was hatched at a Colorado Counties Inc. conference earlier this week, Weld County spokeswoman Jennifer Finch said.
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