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2024 Elections: One Last Chance for Democracy

Swansong said:
This is outstanding news. Win or lose (and you know my preference), this will drive out blue voters rather substantially more than it will red voters (if that was not true, then GQP'ers would be happy to make sure it's on every ballot).
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Yeah...except Noem will overrule it if it wins just like when Weed was on the ballot. She doesn't care what the people vote for...
 
Handyman said:
He is the best president of my 44 years of life and it isn't close.
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By my math I add 4 more presidents to you, and he still ranks as number 1. If we had a congress where the majority (as in number of representatives, not referring to the party in charge necessarily) actually wanted to accomplish grand things, Biden would not only be a good president when graded on a curve, he'd actually be one of the few presidents who may have achieved greatness. The notion that he has been anything less than highly effective and as good as we've seen in many, many generations is entirely a creation of the media, much of it mainstream.
 
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Handyman said:
That isn't being a Liberal. I am not sure you actually know what a Liberal is but it is definitely not that. That is the picture the Right (especially Faux News) has painted of Liberals since the 1990s and apparently you bought it hook line and sinker.
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No, it's the opposite. Fox would have you think Liberals are serious Leftists who want massive change. If only.
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
I believe you and handy were called centrists, and I was called a liberal a while ago . All intended as slurs of course

apparently a hypocritical leftist position is the correct one?

can’t wait for the explanation of how I’m wrong tho
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As I said, the worst of all is to understand the game, and agree with the Leftists, but still do nothing. Those are the people who are going to hell. Leftists with two houses who don't just up and give one to a Honduran family. Because that's the only genuine defensible moral position.

The ethical hierarchy is:

S -- Sincere Leftists who actually put their money where their mouth is
A -- Normal American Liberals (You, Handy, dx, etc)

------------ < line of moral acceptability; you all go to heaven above this line > ----------------------

B -- As far as I know, there is no B.
C -- New York Times Liberals (limousine liberals, half my neighbors growing up >

------------ < line of moral neutrality; we all go to hell below this line > ----------------------

D -- Fascists
F -- Hypocritical Leftists who know what's going on and make no personal sacrifice
 
dxmnkd316 said:
I sincerely believe you think those are the choices, but they're not. I probably wouldn't describe myself as a true progressive. I want progressive policies in many areas, but not all. Am I sincere? Am I a hypocrite?

I'd caution you against deifying the sincerity of the progressives. They just like the rest of us. You just identify with them and can't see their faults.
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I don't think you are a hypocrite at all. I think you're probably the best of all of us here, TBH. You strike me as somebody who does everything he can, and then some. I admire that. I honestly think if you had my resources you'd make real change. I've been trying to be that person now for fifty years, and I am not even close.

Handy et al. will never understand what I am really saying. Paul Wellstone is my idol: he was the best a Liberal can be, and he made real change. That, to me, is you. If you were the average Democrat this country would be a paradise, and the Rightwing menace would never have grown so large.
 
I do agree though that Wellstone was probably the best this country put in the senate for an extremely long time.
 
Kepler said:
No, it's the opposite. Fox would have you think Liberals are serious Leftists who want massive change. If only.
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Fox and their malignant offshoots would have you think there's no difference between any MAGAt or Republican who dares to step out of line, and a leftist.
 
You guys are talking about Faux now which is not worth the discussion. I am talking about what Faux was doing for 20 years prior to that. Every Liberal was one of those NY Limousine Liberals...the ones who go to the Met Gala and talk about Global Warming while having the carbon footprint of a small midwestern state. The way you paint Liberals Kep is literally what they used to say about them only in a derogatory way. Same game they played with Hillary...it was a long con just destroy her a little bit every day and the longer she is in the spotlight the more she becomes the face of everything they want people to believe is wrong with everyone to the left of them. That was how they shifted the Overton Window so easily...they duped a lot of Boomers into believing that the people who believed in the things that that (The Former Hippy Boomers) were hypocrites and frauds. I have seen it firsthand way more than I am comfortable with. Watching people like my dad, a guy who only supported Bill Clinton as the Dem nominee because he loved Hillary (interesting fact he was approached to be a Minnesota Delegate that year randomly) and wanted her someday to be President, turn into someone spouting the same nonsense Faux or even the Times said (he reads the Times almost every day) was eye-opening.
 
WeAreNDHockey said:
By my math I add 4 more presidents to you, and he still ranks as number 1. If we had a congress where the majority (as in number of representatives, not referring to the party in charge necessarily) actually wanted to accomplish grand things, Biden would not only be a good president when graded on a curve, he'd actually be one of the few presidents who may have achieved greatness. The notion that he has been anything less than highly effective and as good as we've seen in many, many generations is entirely a creation of the media, much of it mainstream.
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If he hadn't had two traitors in the Dem Caucus in the Senate he would be in the rarified air of FDR...
 
Before...he almost fell over in St. Paul and the speech you referenced was the NRA speech in North Carolina ;)

Speaking of that NRA speech, Trump was super late for it and the crowd booed him until he got there.
 
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