2020 Patty Kazmaier

[Timothy A]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

It seems to me the award has morphed into a best player award, not the outstanding student athlete leadership award it was originally.

Scoring has something to do with it or the 7th D on St. Cloud may be the best qualified for the award.

 

[mnwis]

I haven't seen Cornell play, but when your top scorer is a defender with 8 goals and you've only lost one game all year, can I assume the goalie may have something to do with their success?

Mills,O'neal, and Lewis are really good..
That defender has 31 assists to go with her goals and is very good also...Browning is great...plus they have given up only 8 ppl goals out of 114 pk....

 

[Hockeynation]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Watts has 49 assists, Giguere has 28. Who is more valuable to her team?

Watts is a dynamic offensive player without a doubt. However, Wisco still would be a powerhouse without her. Clarkson without Giguere would be a completely different team without her and have nowhere near the success they have enjoyed this year and the past few seasons.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Watts is a dynamic offensive player without a doubt. However, Wisco still would be a powerhouse without her. Clarkson without Giguere would be a completely different team without her and have nowhere near the success they have enjoyed this year and the past few seasons.

I totally disagree UW would be a powerhouse without her (defining powerhouse as a top 4 team). If you take out her 73 pts, what other combination of players would have scored half as much as that let alone the whole amount? Would Greig or Grace Shirley have done that? No way, otherwise they'd be on the 2nd or 3rd line not the 4th. Mauermann/Curl playing in Watts' (and Sophie Shirley's) spot with Roque have not put up Watts amounts of points, not even close. Missing all those apples also would have supressed other players numbers. Without Watts, MN wins the wwcha league title and UW is looking at an away game in the ncaa's if they would have made it at all. They could have finished in 3rd in the wwcha behind OSU as well and at best have been a bubble team.

 

[rochnycsc]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

I totally disagree UW would be a powerhouse without her (defining powerhouse as a top 4 team). If you take out her 73 pts, what other combination of players would have scored half as much as that let alone the whole amount? Would Greig or Grace Shirley have done that? No way, otherwise they'd be on the 2nd or 3rd line not the 4th. Mauermann/Curl playing in Watts' (and Sophie Shirley's) spot with Roque have not put up Watts amounts of points, not even close. Missing all those apples also would have supressed other players numbers. Without Watts, MN wins the wwcha league title and UW is looking at an away game in the ncaa's if they would have made it at all. They could have finished in 3rd in the wwcha behind OSU as well and at best have been a bubble team.

Without Guguere Clarkson is a mid-table ECAC team who wouldn't get home ice in the ECAC playoffs much less make the NCAA tourney. Remember #10 Quinnipiac finished 7th in the ECAC.

10 GWG's, averages 1.853 pts/game on a team that only scores 3.1 goals/game, second leading scorer is a freshman who is exceeding expectations due to playing with EG.

We can argue who is a better hockey player or better in the community, but there is no doubt who means more to their team.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Mauermann/Curl playing in Watts' (and Sophie Shirley's) spot with Roque have not put up Watts amounts of points, not even close.

If Watts wasn't in Madison, Curl would have likely played with Roque and Shirley, as she did last year. They were a very good line last year, and if they had been left intact, they'd have been better this year with two wings who were now sophomores instead of freshmen.

If the team had scored a little less, maybe defense would have been stressed more and they'd be in a better place now. We didn't expect much from the 2017-18 UW team coming into the season, and it overachieved. I'm not buying that Ohio State automatically finishes above a UW w/o Watts. I don't think that you believe that either, but it is just convenient to the point you're now making. W/o Watts, UW is still very likely a top-four team, and fourth is where WCHODR has the Badgers ranked even with Watts. W/o her, they would score less, but we will never know whether or not they would win less. Maybe they defeat teams like BSU and MSU if those were must-win games.

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

I totally disagree UW would be a powerhouse without her (defining powerhouse as a top 4 team). If you take out her 73 pts, what other combination of players would have scored half as much as that let alone the whole amount? Would Greig or Grace Shirley have done that? No way, otherwise they'd be on the 2nd or 3rd line not the 4th. Mauermann/Curl playing in Watts' (and Sophie Shirley's) spot with Roque have not put up Watts amounts of points, not even close. Missing all those apples also would have supressed other players numbers. Without Watts, MN wins the wwcha league title and UW is looking at an away game in the ncaa's if they would have made it at all. They could have finished in 3rd in the wwcha behind OSU as well and at best have been a bubble team.

The Badgers without Watts is like the Kardashians without Kanye. In this analogy, Greig or Shirley would play the Kris Humphries role.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

If Watts wasn't in Madison, Curl would have likely played with Roque and Shirley, as she did last year. They were a very good line last year, and if they had been left intact, they'd have been better this year with two wings who were now sophomores instead of freshmen.

If the team had scored a little less, maybe defense would have been stressed more and they'd be in a better place now. We didn't expect much from the 2017-18 UW team coming into the season, and it overachieved. I'm not buying that Ohio State automatically finishes above a UW w/o Watts. I don't think that you believe that either, but it is just convenient to the point you're now making. W/o Watts, UW is still very likely a top-four team, and fourth is where WCHODR has the Badgers ranked even with Watts. W/o her, they would score less, but we will never know whether or not they would win less. Maybe they defeat teams like BSU and MSU if those were must-win games.

The thought that UW could be better w/o Watts defensively unfounded. UW misses Rolfes and Gardner bigtime. Soup has had an off year that could or could not be related to an injury. I have seen Watts play in 16 games and she has never stood out as far as lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. I paid close attention to this early in the season and even commented on the UW thread that she fit right in defensively. She has really exceeded even my lofty expectations as an overall and all round complete player.

Without Watts, MN wins the league hands down since UW squeaked out the conference by 1 point. I think the gap back to OSU is minimal. It's 10 pts. That is 3 wins and a tie. It's not crazy to think UW has 3 less wins without Watts. It's also not crazy to to think that OSU doesn't go 1-2-1 against UW. If OSU splits at home with UW it's a 6 pt swing right there.

I agree Curl is with Roque and SS if Watts is not there. But then Roque and SS score less points with Curl vs Watts, Watts is more creative than Curl.

By the way Watts was #1 on Sportscenter top 10 plays Sunday, beating MS Olympic goaltending hero on a great play.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

The thought that UW could be better w/o Watts defensively unfounded.

I'm saying that the Badgers would be forced to be better defensively without her. I've watched all of Johnson's teams over the years, and some of the early ones had a lot less talent than now. Almost all of them were more solid defensively than this team is. IMO, the Badgers still have more talent than OSU, with her without Watts.

Here is another way to consider this question. What if UW had Watts but Roque gets hurt and misses the entire season like Lonergan did at Clarkson. Would a team with Watts but not Roque be stronger or weaker than one with Roque but not Watts? I think that Roque would be harder to replace in the lineup, but I don't have any stats to back that up.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

I think that Roque would be harder to replace in the lineup, but I don't have any stats to back that up.

That's easy. Look up who leads the WCHA in faceoff wins (by a mile) and faceoff win percentage.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

That's easy. Look up who leads the WCHA in faceoff wins (by a mile) and faceoff win percentage.

Right, but that doesn't say that leading in faceoff wins is more valuable than leading in PPG as Watts is. Maybe it is like trying to pick between Wendell and Darwitz in 2005, and there just isn't any way to do it.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Right, but that doesn't say that leading in faceoff wins is more valuable than leading in PPG as Watts is.

??

The WCHA web site says Roque and Curl are tied for the conference lead in power play goals (all games); of course, it almost goes without saying that the means Watts is leading in power play assists...

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

??

The WCHA web site says Roque and Curl are tied for the conference lead in power play goals (all games); of course, it almost goes without saying that the means Watts is leading in power play assists...

Sorry, I was lazy. PPG is Points Per Game in this context.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Sorry, I was lazy. PPG is Points Per Game in this context.

(When you are talking about two players from the same team - barring injury - doesn't 'points per game' and 'total points' tell you the same thing?)

Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

The thought that UW could be better w/o Watts defensively unfounded. UW misses Rolfes and Gardner bigtime. Soup has had an off year that could or could not be related to an injury. I have seen Watts play in 16 games and she has never stood out as far as lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. I paid close attention to this early in the season and even commented on the UW thread that she fit right in defensively. She has really exceeded even my lofty expectations as an overall and all round complete player.

Without Watts, MN wins the league hands down since UW squeaked out the conference by 1 point. I think the gap back to OSU is minimal. It's 10 pts. That is 3 wins and a tie. It's not crazy to think UW has 3 less wins without Watts. It's also not crazy to to think that OSU doesn't go 1-2-1 against UW. If OSU splits at home with UW it's a 6 pt swing right there.

I agree Curl is with Roque and SS if Watts is not there. But then Roque and SS score less points with Curl vs Watts, Watts is more creative than Curl.

By the way Watts was #1 on Sportscenter top 10 plays Sunday, beating MS Olympic goaltending hero on a great play.

But then again, your expectations come through a haze of thinner consumption.

Watts was awesome defensively on the short handed goal by UMD Sunday.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

Watts was awesome defensively on the short handed goal by UMD Sunday.

There were two goals on Sunday when Watts' defense was far less than stellar.

But Tim didn't phrase his post in terms of effectiveness; rather, he said "...lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. "

As I said, Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

(When you are talking about two players from the same team - barring injury - doesn't 'points per game' and 'total points' tell you the same thing?)

Not necessarily, because of injury/illness, national team duties, etc.). In this case, Watts leads all players in PPG (and also total points, but that is the one where other NCAA players have played far fewer games.) This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins.

 

[robertearle]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

"This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins."

And faceoff wins are certainly more than a strictly offensive stat.

Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

 

[Reddington]

"This is in the context of you pointing out that Roque leads the WCHA in faceoff wins."

And faceoff wins are certainly more than a strictly offensive stat.

Any minute now, we'll be moving on to everyone's favorite, 'plus/minus'.

[/QUOTE

Lots of nice analytical arguments being made on behalf of players. I don't see Giguere getting it, to much Clarkson recently. I do not see Watts getting it because of the transfer factor. If she repeats these stats or close next year I can see her winning next year. This year will be a surprise.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2020 Patty Kazmaier

There were two goals on Sunday when Watts' defense was far less than stellar.

But Tim didn't phrase his post in terms of effectiveness; rather, he said "...lack of effort backchecking or being lazy in the D zone. "

I agree that it's safe to say UMD goals #2 and #4 don't cast Watts in the best light. Both looked like something right out of BC game footage. In both, she's in position, and then just quits on the play.

Here is my question, and I don't think it factors into the Kazmaier decision either now or at any point in the past. We talk about players being "competitors" all the time, but if you put any number of UW players over the years in the same position -- Bauer, Lawler, Duggan, Decker, Clarke -- they might still get beat and give up a goal, but they're at least going to go down trying. Watts, like so many natural scorers, just doesn't demonstrate the same natural ability for defending that she does for scoring. She's there, but she doesn't know what to do. Put her in the offensive end with the puck on her stick, and then she knows what to do. Would Badger fans rather have Roque standing in the crease before goal #2 and defending the shooter before goal #4? I would, but you watch them far more and are better informed.

And I don't mean to pick on Watts specifically. Minnesota fans would much rather have Heise in a position like that trying to prevent a goal than Zumwinkle. Centers are often more defensively aware.