2013-2014 Schedules

[97osu]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

17?? not sure we will get there .would be happy with that

I'm being very optimistic the returning defenseman are going to shut down a couple teams for extra wins to make it to 17.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

St. Norbert is not participating in the 2013-14 Pathfinder.

Are they the team for the following year?

I know they are coming out here, unless they bailed.

 

[SNC SID]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Are they the team for the following year?

I know they are coming out here, unless they bailed.

From what I understand there was never a firm offer or commitment, so no one "bailed" on anything. I kind of know what happened, and it's not anything bad at all, things just didn't work out. Not sure on 14-15.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Hearing a rumor that Stonehill College may be dropping hockey as a Varsity sport and adding mens lacrosse.
Scheduling as a DII, being very difficult to find games, nd not wanting to spend the money to be a DI are the reasons behind the rumored move.
Too bad if true as they are a no scholarship, good academic team that has had a program for awhile.
I'm guessing there will be more DII teams to follow their lead and go club.
We'll see.

 

[NUProf]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Hearing a rumor that Stonehill College may be dropping hockey as a Varsity sport and adding mens lacrosse.
Scheduling as a DII, being very difficult to find games, nd not wanting to spend the money to be a DI are the reasons behind the rumored move.
Too bad if true as they are a no scholarship, good academic team that has had a program for awhile.
I'm guessing there will be more DII teams to follow their lead and go club.
We'll see.

That is not good news, although probably the NCAA will be pleased to increase the purity index in D3 hockey. Now if we can just get rid of the Saints in the ECAC East, everyone will be happier (what a crock )

 

[hawkhockey]

That is not good news, although probably the NCAA will be pleased to increase the purity index in D3 hockey. Now if we can just get rid of the Saints in the ECAC East, everyone will be happier (what a crock )

An unintended consequence of the proliferation of varsity men's lacrosse in the the Northeast is that it hurts the expansion of varsity hockey teams.
One of the reasons that many schools instituted their hockey programs were to attract men in an attempt to balance their male / female student ratios.
Hockey helped in that regard. Unfortunately, with the increasing popularity of men's lacrosse the schools can accomplish their goal by starting a lacrosse team that can produce the same number of men as student athletes at a fraction of the cost of an ice hockey program.
And if a school does not have a men's team,
Am not sure a womens team makes sense.

I used to think, maybe naively , that the NCAA was created to promote college athletics. Now I am not so sure.
And as for those D III purists, spare me.

 

[NUProf]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I used to think, maybe naively , that the NCAA was created to promote college athletics. Now I am not so sure.

And as for those D III purists, spare me.

It was created to regulate college athletics after a spate of abuses and scandals that took place during the early 20th century. It has become a money making "non-profit" that seems to be mostly focused on generating funds for big time Division I programs - most of which are not really programs that have anything to do with college (especially DI Basketball and Football)

As for DIII - I have always felt that if a program wanted to abide by DIII regulations concerning financial aid in hockey, then they should be allowed to compete as full member of the community. If there were a viable DII level of competition in hockey, it could be a different story, but there is not such a level

 

[dreamer6]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

As for DIII - I have always felt that if a program wanted to abide by DIII regulations concerning financial aid in hockey, then they should be allowed to compete as full member of the community. If there were a viable DII level of competition in hockey, it could be a different story, but there is not such a level

I agree--so what is the reason why the St.'s are not allowed to become full-fledged members of the ECAC East? They both abide with the financial aid regs of DIII.

 

[NUProf]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I agree--so what is the reason why the St.'s are not allowed to become full-fledged members of the ECAC East? They both abide with the financial aid regs of DIII.

Because according to NCAA logic, they are Division II schools and are not allowed. The only way they could be otherwise would be if they moved their entire athletic programs to DIII. Essentially in the case of those schools, the DII scholarships they give in basketball taint their hockey programs.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I agree--so what is the reason why the St.'s are not allowed to become full-fledged members of the ECAC East? They both abide with the financial aid regs of DIII.

Adding to prof's explanation, it is not because of the ECAC. The NCAA does not allow any games against ST M or A to count for DIII schools. Currently, that means all the other ECAC-East schools have a max of 21 NCAA games.

 

[wickfan]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Because according to NCAA logic, they are Division II schools and are not allowed. The only way they could be otherwise would be if they moved their entire athletic programs to DIII. Essentially in the case of those schools, the DII scholarships they give in basketball taint their hockey programs.

Just a question. Is it true a college team can play in a higher division but not a lower divison (Like Norwich women rugby)

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Adding to prof's explanation, it is not because of the ECAC. The NCAA does not allow any games against ST M or A to count for DIII schools. Currently, that means all the other ECAC-East schools have a max of 21 NCAA games.

Correct...the ECAC allows them in as "full members". Saint Anselm, St. Michael's, and Holy Cross (women) are eligible to win the regular season titles, postseason all-conference/major awards, player and rookie of the week honors etc. The only thing they are excluded from is the postseason tournament and the reason for that is because if they were to win the ECAC East Tournament, they would kill the league's autobid.

The problem lies with the NCAA, not the ECAC.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Just a question. Is it true a college team can play in a higher division but not a lower divison (Like Norwich women rugby)

Yes, but Norwich Rugby is not a good example, since it's not an NCAA sport at all, and is run by USARugby

For quite some time, single-sport "play-ups" were allowed, one per gender. In the early 2000s, DIII decided to mandate that DIII schools playing up needed to abide by DIII financial aid rules, so only those playing up before 2003 could offer scholarships.

However, the NCAA has changed the rules, and the RIT women (after fighting for it) became the LAST single-sport play-up. No new ones.

Scholarship-Granting:
St. Lawrence hockey M&W
Clarkson hockey M&W
RPI hockey M&W
Colorado College hockey M
Colorado College soccer W
Hartwick Soccer M
Hartwick Water Polo W
Johns Hopkins Lacrosse M&W
Rutgers-Newark Volleyball M

Non-Scholarship:
RIT hockey M&W
Union hockey M&W (chose not to offer scholarships)
Hobart Lacrosse M
Lawrence fencing Co-ed
Franklin and Marshall wrestling M
MIT rowing W

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Just a question. Is it true a college team can play in a higher division but not a lower divison (Like Norwich women rugby)

I believe this is correct. Holy Cross women's hockey is also an outlier as they are a Division I school that plays in the ECAC East with a majority of D-III schools as well as Saint Michael's and Saint Anselm. Holy Cross does not offer athletic scholarships or anything of the kind and their women's hockey team is the only team that does not play a Division I schedule that I'm aware of.

Norwich women's rugby is different because it is not an NCAA sanctioned sport. As CardsRuletheBurgh alluded to, it is sanctioned by USA Rugby so it does not apply to the NCAA model. The NU men's rugby team for that matter is Division II but that is a completely different ball of wax since its USARugby and not NCAA.

Does this clear things up between my response and Nate's?

 

[SNC SID]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Yes, but Norwich Rugby is not a good example, since it's not an NCAA sport at all, and is run by USARugby

For quite some time, single-sport "play-ups" were allowed, one per gender. In the early 2000s, DIII decided to mandate that DIII schools playing up needed to abide by DIII financial aid rules, so only those playing up before 2003 could offer scholarships.

However, the NCAA has changed the rules, and the RIT women (after fighting for it) became the LAST single-sport play-up. No new ones.

Scholarship-Granting:
St. Lawrence hockey M&W
Clarkson hockey M&W
RPI hockey M&W
Colorado College hockey M
Colorado College soccer W
Hartwick Soccer M
Hartwick Water Polo W
Johns Hopkins Lacrosse M&W
Rutgers-Newark Volleyball M

Non-Scholarship:
RIT hockey M&W
Union hockey M&W (chose not to offer scholarships)
Hobart Lacrosse M
Lawrence fencing Co-ed
Franklin and Marshall wrestling M
MIT rowing W

The rule requiring you can only offer athletics grants-in-aid at a level of your lowest divisional affiliation actually dates back to 1982-83. Anyone moving up after that point, such as RIT and Union, had to abide by Division III aid (i.e. regular-student aid only) after that. Rules since have prohibited moveups, including a rule in the late 80s that eliminated schools like Dayton and Drake to play Division III football while being DI in everything else.

 

[wickfan]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I believe this is correct. Holy Cross women's hockey is also an outlier as they are a Division I school that plays in the ECAC East with a majority of D-III schools as well as Saint Michael's and Saint Anselm. Holy Cross does not offer athletic scholarships or anything of the kind and their women's hockey team is the only team that does not play a Division I schedule that I'm aware of.

Norwich women's rugby is different because it is not an NCAA sanctioned sport. As CardsRuletheBurgh alluded to, it is sanctioned by USA Rugby so it does not apply to the NCAA model. The NU men's rugby team for that matter is Division II but that is a completely different ball of wax since its USARugby and not NCAA.

Does this clear things up between my response and Nate's?

Yes thanks guys. I didnt know rugby was not sanctioned by the ncaa.

 

[dreamer6]

Because according to NCAA logic, they are Division II schools and are not allowed. The only way they could be otherwise would be if they moved their entire athletic programs to DIII. Essentially in the case of those schools, the DII scholarships they give in basketball taint their hockey programs.

Which is exactly what they need to do! I know I have asked about this before, and I remember some responses indicated that St. Mike's receives a substantial amount of money from basketball supporters. If they chose to move down, (I realize it is a big IF), would the NCAA inhibit them from doing so?

 

[NUProf]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Which is exactly what they need to do! I know I have asked about this before, and I remember some responses indicated that St. Mike's receives a substantial amount of money from basketball supporters. If they chose to move down, (I realize it is a big IF), would the NCAA inhibit them from doing so?

They could reclassify down if they took the whole department down to DIII. If so, they would have to go through a 4 year reclassification process so they could "purify" their athletic program and get rid of all the DII rif-raf. The process would be like what Canton is going through to move from the NAIA to DIII.

The reason that teams are no longer allowed to play up (except in the case in which no championship is conducted in a sport) is because the DI powers-that-be did not want to allow schools from lower divisions to play for "their" championship. They never allowed "play-ups" in basketball because they wanted to keep the revenue from the the hoops bloatathon from leaking to the unworthy schools, and they never allowed it in football either.

I think they feared "brand dilution." The DI purists hate it when a DIII school wins a DI national title that should be going to Michigan, or Michigan State or one of the NCAA royalty. The teams that are currently playing up were allowed to continue to play up, with the provision that if they ever failed to field a team they would not be allowed to return.

 

[hawkhockey]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

One of the major issues is that all DII's are not alike.
In fact, most New England DII, with the possible exception of Bentley in the hockey world, colleges do not fit the traditional DII mold.
As an example of a NE DII School and the national DII profile university

Saint Mike's , 2,000 students, private, scholarships in one sport,adequate endowment ($70 million), Tuition Room board = $ 47,000
Bemidji State 5100 stude3nts ,public, scholarships in multi sports, endowment ?, tuition, room and board = $16,000

Most NE 10 schools that give scholarships are schools that had in many cases only supported, prior to 1975,less than 5 Varsity sports with basketball being the main sport.

The issue for the NCAA is can they bend their rules to allow colleges that support regional specific sports(hockey) to continue playing in leagues, abiding by the same member rules, as they have been playing in for years.

To offer as the only option to these schools, that they move UP to DI, and with the move incurring costs in the millions, in most instances is an option that will be declined.

It looks like bad days ahead for the game of hockey but good days ahead for college lacrosse.

 

[neumyer]

I think they feared "brand dilution." The DI purists hate it when a DIII school wins a DI national title that should be going to Michigan, or Michigan State or one of the NCAA royalty. The teams that are currently playing up were allowed to continue to play up, with the provision that if they ever failed to field a team they would not be allowed to return.

Other than Johns Hopkins in lacrosse and RPI in hockey, I can't think of any other examples of D3 schools winning a D1 championship. Does anyone know of others?