2013-2014 Schedules

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Interesting argument.

While it's encouraging to see that you know the alphabet through the five first letters, your post seemed to boil-down to an empty pot.

Utica has nothing to prove in terms of scheduling. They play a brutal schedule- even on the road- simply due to being in the W.

Throw Oswego in there as salt on the wound, and it's simply ridiculous to keep doing what you're doing.

And as we expected....

I knew I lost you on "We have, several times"

I just showed you that the ECAC West numbers are skewed when 75% of their schedule is against some of the worst teams in DIII. Teams that any "good" team should beat 95% of the time. So having a big winning % against crap teams only skews the SOS making it SEEM like the ECAC West is head and shoulders above any other team/league. The whole "simply due to being in the W" is exactly the point. You want to base how great Utica's schedule is based on the fact you think the West is this almighty league when I've proven, once again, their numbers are skewed due to the fact that they play a soft schedule NC schedule that does nothing but inflate their W-L record, which in return inflates their SOS. Just as the side argument goes, if the league was that good it would have more then a .361 winning % in NCAA Quarters/Semi's/and Finals. Take out Neumann's cheating, I mean winning, season of 08-09 and it would drop down to .28% a far cry from a dominating league and a "brutal" schedule.

 

[smbenny]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I'm an ECAC West fan and understand and agree with the NC schedule, but it doesn't make sense that you hound Neumann for the 08-09 season when I'm sure there are teams that still "cheat," and they beat Plattsburgh in Plattsburgh's barn!

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I'm an ECAC West fan and understand and agree with the NC schedule, but it doesn't make sense that you hound Neumann for the 08-09 season when I'm sure there are teams that still "cheat," and they beat Plattsburgh in Plattsburgh's barn!

Because there is a big difference in the term "cheat"....ask anyone about 1987 and its "Plattsburgh got what they deserved" when things go on just the same today to an extent. Yes they did beat Plattsburgh, in Plattsburgh, and thanks to a certain goaltender who was not even coming back the next season, had two of his worst starts in coming to Plattsburgh. Sure they beat Plattsburgh, but last I check Neumann doesn't have the little "*" next to their title when it was beyond blatant what they did. But I forgot, the coach didn't know...rrriigghhtttt.....

This was a team who gave out not 50, not 60, not 70, not 80, not even 90% but 98% of their FA grants AKA "scholarships" went to athletes, and athletes who played hockey, but "oh we didn't know...poor me poor me" so let's give them a slap on the wrist and "don't do it again" or we will really be mean next time.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

And as we expected....

I knew I lost you on "We have, several times"

I just showed you that the ECAC West numbers are skewed when 75% of their schedule is against some of the worst teams in DIII. Teams that any "good" team should beat 95% of the time. So having a big winning % against crap teams only skews the SOS making it SEEM like the ECAC West is head and shoulders above any other team/league. The whole "simply due to being in the W" is exactly the point. You want to base how great Utica's schedule is based on the fact you think the West is this almighty league when I've proven, once again, their numbers are skewed due to the fact that they play a soft schedule NC schedule that does nothing but inflate their W-L record, which in return inflates their SOS. Just as the side argument goes, if the league was that good it would have more then a .361 winning % in NCAA Quarters/Semi's/and Finals. Take out Neumann's cheating, I mean winning, season of 08-09 and it would drop down to .28% a far cry from a dominating league and a "brutal" schedule.

Ummm... You haven't "proven" anything to anyone.

OK, so the W plays a preponderance of their OOC games vs. the SUNYAC, which makes perfect sense considering geography and travel costs.

Are you saying that Platty's conference is "crap"..? (There are lots and lots of bad teams in D-3, in case you haven't noticed.)

I could go on and on in this vein, but please just cut to the chase and tell us all who had a better RS SOS than Utica in the East last year. That's all I'm asking. As strenuously as you try to obfuscate the obvious data, you never even attempt to answer this simple question.

(Make the effort; I'm due for a laugh. Oswego is the only non-W team in the discussion, IMO.)

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Ummm... You haven't "proven" anything to anyone.

Other people have said they got it and understand and agree, whos the slow one?

OK, so the W plays a preponderance of their OOC games vs. the SUNYAC, which makes perfect sense considering geography and travel costs.

Are you saying that Platty's conference is "crap"..? (There are lots and lots of bad teams in D-3, in case you haven't noticed.)

Never said the SUNYAC was the best conference. There are a couple elite teams, a couple good teams, a couple average teams and a couple "crap" teams yes. Once again, Ive proven in the past that the ECAC West plays over 75% of its NC schedule against the "crap" SUNYAC teams and other crap teams from other conferences. A lot more then you see SNC, OSU, PSU, and even Norwich (which I believe was around 50% vs. "crap" teams average). Once again you were shown the facts and cant understand, go figure.

I could go on and on in this vein, but please just cut to the chase and tell us all who had a better RS SOS than Utica in the East last year. That's all I'm asking. As strenuously as you try to obfuscate the obvious data, you never even attempt to answer this simple question.

(Make the effort; I'm due for a laugh. Oswego is the only non-W team in the discussion, IMO.)

Does it matter? No matter what someone says you dissagree, even when proven wrong, but just for SnG I ranked Plattsburghs schedule last season. I had Buff State at home as Plattsburghs 17th toughest compared to Uticas 10th toughest contest. I also have @ Cortland Plattsburghs 19th toughest game vs Uticas 14th. All of this without playing on average 80% of the games at home.

You think Uticas schedule is.so great because.you still think the ECAC West is this almighty untouchable conference because of their big OOC record, but once you dig and shown how their OOC schedule is against some of DIII's "crap" teams you try and change your view again. You my friend are the only laugh here. You're like that guy who walks up to the laughing crowd and starts laughing but it never occurs to him that they are laughing at him. The one who sticks his hand up for a high five and everyone just turns the other way. As you put your head down (cue the dorky music) you notice the ugly chick of the party sitting alone on the couch and its a match made it heaven where nothing else matters, no matter what you're always right because you have your girl (or guy dont want to discriminate).

Cheers Fish

 

[elbojpb]

Not many options

Not many options

I just showed you that the ECAC West numbers are skewed when 75% of their schedule is against some of the worst teams in DIII. Teams that any "good" team should beat 95% of the time.

Remy - Your analysis is absolutely correct.

BUT, when 40% of the "best" teams in the East are in your own conference, filling out a 10 game non-conference schedule is a bit of a challenge. The ECAC/W non-conference "best" choices are 2/3 Sunyac teams, 1/2 ECAC/E, 0/1 Mascac, 0/1 ECAC/NE, 1/2 NESCAC, and many of those teams NC schedules are de-facto booked. So it's not that the ECAC/W teams are purposely loading up their NC schedules with cupcakes, there simply isn't a viable alternative other than an expensive trip to Wisconsin / Minnesota.

Footnote: Filling up Utica's home non-conference schedule with top-flight teams is another story.

PS - Is your facility one of those slated for closure?

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Remy - Your analysis is absolutely correct.

BUT, when 40% of the "best" teams in the East are in your own conference, filling out a 10 game non-conference schedule is a bit of a challenge. The ECAC/W non-conference "best" choices are 2/3 Sunyac teams, 1/2 ECAC/E, 0/1 Mascac, 0/1 ECAC/NE, 1/2 NESCAC, and many of those teams NC schedules are de-facto booked. So it's not that the ECAC/W teams are purposely loading up their NC schedules with cupcakes, there simply isn't a viable alternative other than an expensive trip to Wisconsin / Minnesota.

Footnote: Filling up Utica's home non-conference schedule with top-flight teams is another story.

PS - Is your facility one of those slated for closure?

Im not saying the ECAC W is/was dodging quality teams for the most part. Elmira is and has always been a team that isnt afraid to play anyone home or AWAY. In todays economy and with NCAA game limits combined with increased conference members you can not fill your NC schedule with Top 10 teams, but you can not hide the fact that the majority of games played have and are against the bottom half of the Yac and other leagues. And im not sure if 40% is accurate. As Ive said if they were that good they would have more then a .28 or whatever winning % come tourney time. To me OSU, PSU, Geneseo > Utica, Neumann, Hobart.

I dont think they have to go out west. Williams, Babson, Bowdoin, Colby, Amherst, NEC, Castleton, more Geneseo, more Buff State, Castleton, UMB, and less Morrisville, Cortland, Brockport, Salve Regina, WNE, Nicols, Plattsburgh JV aka Curry and other MASCAC/ECACNE teams. Point is there ARE better teams out there, especially when you play them on the road *cough cough*

This isnt a slam on Elmira but remember when Manhatanville started and thought they were gods because they had this amazing record, but played no one. They were even bashed by ECAC W fans. Not much has changed. By accident, coincidence, on purpose, or by luck the ECAC W as a whole plays weak OOC games (thank god for Oswego and Elmira). Inflates their SOS and record, but when it comes time for the tourney and playing elite teams of DIII are a sub .400 conference.

And no my jail is safe. Sad day for NYS. There is a lot that the dictator we call the Govn. isnt telling NY. They tell you DOCCS has more empty beds, which is true because most jails are still double-bunked. If he stoppped that it would easily fill the closing jails. Or the fact he just hired 22 1st Deps to watch over the touchers of NYS at $85,000/year but in reality will all be making $100,000+. The last contract we had the Govn stated he wouldnt close anymore jails if voted yes, 2 years later we see how that worked out. While my facility wont be closing we will have to absorb several dozen of the staff from two jails. People will be forced to uproot families and move or travel a couple hours daily to work. It will also "bump" several other people out of their job and back to a lower pay grade or on the street in general. Camps like McGregor, Butler and Monteray do ALOT for communities, a lot more then Joe Public realizes. We have seen a massive increase in violence at the facility level yet they put out these bogus numbers. Another "Attica" is coming. Thanks to the Govn new policy two females in Sodus lost their life to an early release, the Webster Firemen tragedy was done by a former NYS convict and many more we read in the paper or see on the news (and some we dont) are thanks to the early release program thats so good for NYS.

Okay okay stepping off the soapbox. 91 Days left. This new start date sucks. Use to be great going right from racing into hockey. Now Ive got a month off in between. Just makes the wife happy.

 

[elbojpb]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

And im not sure if 40% is accurate.

Nothing scientific, more anecdotal. My recollection is that -historically- 4 of the top 10 teams in the East region are ECAC/W teams. The other "quality" teams in the East vary so much from year to year that scheduling an elite team in March may prove to be a cupcake come November (case-in-point ... Elmira this past season).

 

[joecct]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Well if all things stay the same, and the Cardinal Classic is Friday / Saturday, I'll be making it a 3fer, catching the 2 Williams games @ Stafford and then hopping across the Lake on Sunday to see the Alma Mater play Lowell @ UVM.

IIRC the ferry runs 24/7?

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Well if all things stay the same, and the Cardinal Classic is Friday / Saturday, I'll be making it a 3fer, catching the 2 Williams games @ Stafford and then hopping across the Lake on Sunday to see the Alma Mater play Lowell @ UVM.

IIRC the ferry runs 24/7?

Memory serving me correctly, yes. However the later the ferry the longer the wait in between. I believe the other ones tho are limited in the winter.

 

[NUProf]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

IIRC the ferry runs 24/7?

It does unless ice conditions intervene - although in December, that is unlikely

 

[WillieC]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Platty to Grand Isle (Northern ferry) runs 24/7 about every 30-40 min. The Burlington to Port Kent is the long ride...closes down in the fall. See http://www.ferries.com/crossing-schedule-rates/

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Other people have said they got it and understand and agree, whos the slow one?



Never said the SUNYAC was the best conference. There are a couple elite teams, a couple good teams, a couple average teams and a couple "crap" teams yes. Once again, Ive proven in the past that the ECAC West plays over 75% of its NC schedule against the "crap" SUNYAC teams and other crap teams from other conferences. A lot more then you see SNC, OSU, PSU, and even Norwich (which I believe was around 50% vs. "crap" teams average). Once again you were shown the facts and cant understand, go figure.



Does it matter? No matter what someone says you dissagree, even when proven wrong, but just for SnG I ranked Plattsburghs schedule last season. I had Buff State at home as Plattsburghs 17th toughest compared to Uticas 10th toughest contest. I also have @ Cortland Plattsburghs 19th toughest game vs Uticas 14th. All of this without playing on average 80% of the games at home.

You think Uticas schedule is.so great because.you still think the ECAC West is this almighty untouchable conference because of their big OOC record, but once you dig and shown how their OOC schedule is against some of DIII's "crap" teams you try and change your view again. You my friend are the only laugh here. You're like that guy who walks up to the laughing crowd and starts laughing but it never occurs to him that they are laughing at him. The one who sticks his hand up for a high five and everyone just turns the other way. As you put your head down (cue the dorky music) you notice the ugly chick of the party sitting alone on the couch and its a match made it heaven where nothing else matters, no matter what you're always right because you have your girl (or guy dont want to discriminate).

Cheers Fish

Cheers to you too, Champ, and thanks for putting some time aside from solving the riddle of cold-fusion to write yet another brilliant post!

I'm going to try this once more, in spite of the inevitable fact that you will dodge the question yet again: Who played a tougher schedule (in the East) than did Utica last year? Who, FCS?

That's the only "fact" that's germane to this argument, right..? So please offer us your astute opinion on that particular point, already.

 

[NorthernBlight]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Cheers to you too, Champ, and thanks for putting some time aside from solving the riddle of cold-fusion to write yet another brilliant post!

I'm going to try this once more, in spite of the inevitable fact that you will dodge the question yet again: Who played a tougher schedule (in the East) than did Utica last year? Who, FCS?

That's the only "fact" that's germane to this argument, right..? So please offer us your astute opinion on that particular point, already.

In turn, for months you have implied that you think Utica had the hardest schedule in the East last year. What do you base that on?

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I base it upon my own opinion, as well as what the Krach and the NCAA published via their statistical metrics. I certainly didn't pull it out of my framma-zamma... There were logical comparisons to be made, based on hard data.

 

[NorthernBlight]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I base it upon my own opinion, as well as what the Krach and the NCAA published via their statistical metrics. I certainly didn't pull it out of my framma-zamma... There were logical comparisons to be made, based on hard data.

It has been repeatedly explained here how the statistical metrics you reference can be skewed when a league as a whole beats up on weak non-conference opponents. It boosts the win percentage of the entire league so that once they begin insular play within the league everyone benefits. I'm not trying to slight Utica or the ECAC West, but your refusal to concede the facts above make it look like your take on this is based on nothing more than your own opinion. Which must be the case since you keep creating your own fight to fight on this.

Also, probably not the thread for this, but I'm not sure I'd use the NCAA schedule numbers to try to prove much of anything. They are pure mathematical comedy.

 

[llama]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

I knew I lost you on "We have, several times"

I just showed you that the ECAC West numbers are skewed when 75% of their schedule is against some of the worst teams in DIII. Teams that any "good" team should beat 95% of the time. So having a big winning % against crap teams only skews the SOS making it SEEM like the ECAC West is head and shoulders above any other team/league.

Earlier this year someone (a Platty fan) posted this data…
2003-2013 - # of Games Played by SUNYAC teams vs ECAC-W (W-L-T)
Oswego – 55 (35-15-5), Geneseo – 54 (27-24-3), Brockport - 47 (12-31-4), Fredonia - 46 (15-25-6), Cortland - 46 (18-33-5), Buff State - 45 (15-29-4), Potsdam -44 (5-35-4), Morrisville 29 (4-24-1), Plattsburgh – 15 (7-5-3).

ECAC-W games vs the SUNYAC represent about 60% of their OC games. As you see above, the ECAC-W has played Oswego and Geneseo the most times (it is also worth noting that 11 of Geneseo’s 27 wins came against Lebanon Valley). With the exception of Plattsburgh, the ECAC-W has played all the other teams in the SUNYAC about the same number of times (Morrisville obviously hasn’t been around as long or I’m sure they’d have the same #s).

The next most-common foe for the ECAC-W is the ECAC-NE...which account for about 20% of their OC games. I totally get that this is a weak league…no argument to be had there. BUT - of the 70 games they’ve played over the past 6 seasons, 41 (or 60%) have been against Curry, Nichols and Wentworth. Most would consider these the best three teams in the league… they won 5 of the 6 league titles over this period.

I'm not saying anything about SOS metrics - I get your point on that. But take a look at the numbers above. I’m not so sure that your repeated statement of “75%” of ECAC-W games come against the “worst” teams in the SUNYAC and “crappy” (or “bottom half”) teams from other leagues is true.

 

[norm1909]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Earlier this year someone (a Platty fan) posted this data…
2003-2013 - # of Games Played by SUNYAC teams vs ECAC-W (W-L-T)
Oswego – 55 (35-15-5), Geneseo – 54 (27-24-3), Brockport - 47 (12-31-4), Fredonia - 46 (15-25-6), Cortland - 46 (18-33-5), Buff State - 45 (15-29-4), Potsdam -44 (5-35-4), Morrisville 29 (4-24-1), Plattsburgh – 15 (7-5-3).

ECAC-W games vs the SUNYAC represent about 60% of their OC games. As you see above, the ECAC-W has played Oswego and Geneseo the most times (it is also worth noting that 11 of Geneseo’s 27 wins came against Lebanon Valley). With the exception of Plattsburgh, the ECAC-W has played all the other teams in the SUNYAC about the same number of times (Morrisville obviously hasn’t been around as long or I’m sure they’d have the same #s).

The next most-common foe for the ECAC-W is the ECAC-NE...which account for about 20% of their OC games. I totally get that this is a weak league…no argument to be had there. BUT - of the 70 games they’ve played over the past 6 seasons, 41 (or 60%) have been against Curry, Nichols and Wentworth. Most would consider these the best three teams in the league… they won 5 of the 6 league titles over this period.

I'm not saying anything about SOS metrics - I get your point on that. But take a look at the numbers above. I’m not so sure that your repeated statement of “75%” of ECAC-W games come against the “worst” teams in the SUNYAC and “crappy” (or “bottom half”) teams from other leagues is true.

Llamas can not be mistaken for fishers (but note that fishers are weasels).

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

Earlier this year someone (a Platty fan) posted this data…
2003-2013 - # of Games Played by SUNYAC teams vs ECAC-W (W-L-T)
Oswego – 55 (35-15-5), Geneseo – 54 (27-24-3), Brockport - 47 (12-31-4), Fredonia - 46 (15-25-6), Cortland - 46 (18-33-5), Buff State - 45 (15-29-4), Potsdam -44 (5-35-4), Morrisville 29 (4-24-1), Plattsburgh – 15 (7-5-3).

ECAC-W games vs the SUNYAC represent about 60% of their OC games. As you see above, the ECAC-W has played Oswego and Geneseo the most times (it is also worth noting that 11 of Geneseo’s 27 wins came against Lebanon Valley). With the exception of Plattsburgh, the ECAC-W has played all the other teams in the SUNYAC about the same number of times (Morrisville obviously hasn’t been around as long or I’m sure they’d have the same #s).

The next most-common foe for the ECAC-W is the ECAC-NE...which account for about 20% of their OC games. I totally get that this is a weak league…no argument to be had there. BUT - of the 70 games they’ve played over the past 6 seasons, 41 (or 60%) have been against Curry, Nichols and Wentworth. Most would consider these the best three teams in the league… they won 5 of the 6 league titles over this period.

I'm not saying anything about SOS metrics - I get your point on that. But take a look at the numbers above. I’m not so sure that your repeated statement of “75%” of ECAC-W games come against the “worst” teams in the SUNYAC and “crappy” (or “bottom half”) teams from other leagues is true.

You need to find my original post. It may have been closer to 70% I don't remember, but I do remember going through each year, and each years standings of the leagues, (again its not the ECAC W's fault where teams end up at the end of the season, but the facts were facts). Thus while most SUNYAC teams MAY have the same #, the ECAC West has played the lower half (each season) 70%-75% of the time, hence the "if it wasn't for Oswego" point it would be much worse. Which again, is at no fault to the ECAC West as you can not plan a year prior (for the most part) where a team will fall. I've also mentioned that I believe Elmira had the highest NC SOS so to speak. I know of those games you listed, Elmira has played the MOST games against Oswego, Plattsburgh, and Geneseo (the typical top 3 SUNYAC) at well over 35% which is double the next closest ECAC W team (16%).

I could care less who won the ECAC NE title. They may well be the "Best teams in the league" but those teams would be mid-pack at best of any other DIII league (minus say the MASCAC and old MCHA maybe) which is why I included them in the bottom %'s.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: 2013-2014 Schedules

It has been repeatedly explained here how the statistical metrics you reference can be skewed when a league as a whole beats up on weak non-conference opponents. It boosts the win percentage of the entire league so that once they begin insular play within the league everyone benefits. I'm not trying to slight Utica or the ECAC West, but your refusal to concede the facts above make it look like your take on this is based on nothing more than your own opinion. Which must be the case since you keep creating your own fight to fight on this.

Also, probably not the thread for this, but I'm not sure I'd use the NCAA schedule numbers to try to prove much of anything. They are pure mathematical comedy.

Blight, playing bad teams never improves a SOS rating, just to clue you and Champ in...

That metric is always primarily based on W %, v. OW% v. OOW%, etc. (Otherwise, it would be called WOS, right?) It's certainly not perfect, but it's all we have.

If you can offer a better metric than, say, an objective measure such as the Krach to evaluate SOS, please do so... Still haven't heard anything of the sort on here.

(Just as a BTW, have any of you anti-Utica windbags considered going into politics? Might be something you should consider... You could all filibuster for days without ever actually addressing the point in question.)