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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
- Thread starter joecct
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
This is not the first time Finland's system has been offered here as a "solution" to our problems. While there may be things we can learn from them, we might as well look to Andorra for inspiration. Or maybe Neverland. And our self-described smarty pants posters should be able to see that without me pointing it out. Beyond the fact that Finns and Americans are anthropomorphic, there isn't much that's comparable between the two countries. While I think there's a place for testing. It could be we test too much. Much of it is mandated by a political system making certain its a*s is covered. But reducing the testing won't cause failing schools to suddenly improve. The elephant in the room here is the horrible conditions in our inner city schools. We are shortchanging those kids and ourselves.
Some years back in Chicago a tough new principal was named at Wendell Phillips high school. Inner city school with beaucoup problems. She was one of those petite wiry no-nonsense types. She immediately implemented comprehensive get tough policies, with an eye toward improving the atmosphere for learning. I don't remember all the details, but one of her reforms was to bring out of work fathers into the school to provide positive male figures.
In Omaha there's a group called Mad Dads that patrols what's known as "north Omaha" on weekend nights, again, to provide positive male figures. I've ridden with them. What amazed me was the number of very young kids out at 2:00 in the morning, unsupervised, potentially getting all the tips they needed on how to sell drugs. Most all of the guys in Mad Dads are big, very big. And even though nowdays you have to be concerned about kids with guns, they have a positive, calming impact when they're around.
I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer to our manifest problems with education. We have to look under every rock for answers. And if that means exposing the hypocricy of teachers unions, then so be it. Unionized teachers aren't necessarily responsible for the problems plaguing our inner cities. But they're on the front line, in a position to help. And since we pay for their services, we have a right to demand that they at least try. That they commit to educating those kids as enthusiastically as they're committed to improving their benefits packages.
Before we get "pregnant with celestial fire" about Finland, perhaps we should review the inspirational comments made in 2009 by Bob Chanin, general counsel for NEA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ
This is not the first time Finland's system has been offered here as a "solution" to our problems. While there may be things we can learn from them, we might as well look to Andorra for inspiration. Or maybe Neverland. And our self-described smarty pants posters should be able to see that without me pointing it out. Beyond the fact that Finns and Americans are anthropomorphic, there isn't much that's comparable between the two countries. While I think there's a place for testing. It could be we test too much. Much of it is mandated by a political system making certain its a*s is covered. But reducing the testing won't cause failing schools to suddenly improve. The elephant in the room here is the horrible conditions in our inner city schools. We are shortchanging those kids and ourselves.
Some years back in Chicago a tough new principal was named at Wendell Phillips high school. Inner city school with beaucoup problems. She was one of those petite wiry no-nonsense types. She immediately implemented comprehensive get tough policies, with an eye toward improving the atmosphere for learning. I don't remember all the details, but one of her reforms was to bring out of work fathers into the school to provide positive male figures.
In Omaha there's a group called Mad Dads that patrols what's known as "north Omaha" on weekend nights, again, to provide positive male figures. I've ridden with them. What amazed me was the number of very young kids out at 2:00 in the morning, unsupervised, potentially getting all the tips they needed on how to sell drugs. Most all of the guys in Mad Dads are big, very big. And even though nowdays you have to be concerned about kids with guns, they have a positive, calming impact when they're around.
I don't think there's a "one size fits all" answer to our manifest problems with education. We have to look under every rock for answers. And if that means exposing the hypocricy of teachers unions, then so be it. Unionized teachers aren't necessarily responsible for the problems plaguing our inner cities. But they're on the front line, in a position to help. And since we pay for their services, we have a right to demand that they at least try. That they commit to educating those kids as enthusiastically as they're committed to improving their benefits packages.
Before we get "pregnant with celestial fire" about Finland, perhaps we should review the inspirational comments made in 2009 by Bob Chanin, general counsel for NEA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwxiRXqH_hQ
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Big surprise who is standing by the telephone... http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/06/colbert-senate-south-carolina-demint/1751167/
Big surprise who is standing by the telephone... http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2012/12/06/colbert-senate-south-carolina-demint/1751167/
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Has the news cycles been vindicating W cause Obama found saddam's WMD in Syria?
Has the news cycles been vindicating W cause Obama found saddam's WMD in Syria?
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Meanwhile, union goons in Michigan, taking a page from their Wisconsin colleagues, demonstrate against a proposed right to work law in the state capitol and get tear gassed for their efforts. Let's see, what's next? Oh yes. Shut down the capitol. Then union hack obligated legislators can run away and hide.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/06/michigan-governor-right-to-work/1751081/
Meanwhile, union goons in Michigan, taking a page from their Wisconsin colleagues, demonstrate against a proposed right to work law in the state capitol and get tear gassed for their efforts. Let's see, what's next? Oh yes. Shut down the capitol. Then union hack obligated legislators can run away and hide.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/06/michigan-governor-right-to-work/1751081/
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
I thought that game was last year...
I thought that game was last year...
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
yeah, right, it's still all Bush's fault!
Has the news cycles been vindicating W cause Obama found saddam's WMD in Syria?
yeah, right, it's still all Bush's fault!
Opie, Opie, Opie. Haven't you knucks' learned anything from the last election? See, we Dems don't get mad. We just get even! How? By kicking *** at the ballot box.
By passing idiotic self serving legislation for the benefit of big GOP campaign contributors instead of actually governing, these clowns can expect a whole lotta payback come next election as they represent a Democratic state. Now before you say Gov Walker to me, he benefited greatly from being able to massively outspend a guy who'd already lost twice for governor in a special election. Snyder, Kasich, Corbett and to some extend Scott in FL are going to be running in a much different environment than the one that got them elected in 2010 and I'd suggest they all start updating their resumes in case they need to start looking for a new job.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Another strong entry for the USCHO non sequitor contest. First prize is two weeks in Jesse Ventura land. Second prize four weeks (if he's lucky, the winner gets to sniff Al Franken's bicycle seat). Are you suggesting greedy big labor doesn't make massive contributions (both in cash and in kind) to libstain pols to further their legislative agenda? And the lowering of taxes for the middle class in Wisconsin had nothing to do with Walker's (second) victory, which was by a larger margin than his first? It was all because he outspent that moronic mayor of Milwaukee? Dream on, Sparky.
I'd be curious to learn how many of the Michigan demonstrators were public sector union members, taking a day off at public expense. Of course, they could always follow the lead of the union goons in Wisconsin, and have hack union "doctors" issuing them fraudulent medical excuses.
Besides, nobody's surprised when union thugs act like. . .thugs. I believe doctors refer to it as Jock Yablonski Syndrome.
Another strong entry for the USCHO non sequitor contest. First prize is two weeks in Jesse Ventura land. Second prize four weeks (if he's lucky, the winner gets to sniff Al Franken's bicycle seat). Are you suggesting greedy big labor doesn't make massive contributions (both in cash and in kind) to libstain pols to further their legislative agenda? And the lowering of taxes for the middle class in Wisconsin had nothing to do with Walker's (second) victory, which was by a larger margin than his first? It was all because he outspent that moronic mayor of Milwaukee? Dream on, Sparky.
I'd be curious to learn how many of the Michigan demonstrators were public sector union members, taking a day off at public expense. Of course, they could always follow the lead of the union goons in Wisconsin, and have hack union "doctors" issuing them fraudulent medical excuses.
Besides, nobody's surprised when union thugs act like. . .thugs. I believe doctors refer to it as Jock Yablonski Syndrome.
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
As Yogi would say: "Deja vu all over again." Michigan house passes right to work bill. Heading to the Senate, where it's expected to pass. Naturally, Democrat house members "walked out" in protest of keeping rioting union goons out of the capitol. Stop me if you've heard this before.
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/12/right-to-work_bill_passed_in_r.html
As Yogi would say: "Deja vu all over again." Michigan house passes right to work bill. Heading to the Senate, where it's expected to pass. Naturally, Democrat house members "walked out" in protest of keeping rioting union goons out of the capitol. Stop me if you've heard this before.
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/12/right-to-work_bill_passed_in_r.html
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Would you care to explain to us Opie how weakening private sector union rights has helped the plight of the American worker, particularly in manufacturing? Because, you see, it seems blue collar workers bargaining power has gone way, way down over the last 30 years, which has coincided with the decline in labor unions. At best busting unions has no effect, as jobs will still be outsourced. At worst its part of the problem, so again I don't get the glee you do over this. Just so you get the question again, how has busting private sector unions benefited workers in the last 3 decades?
Would you care to explain to us Opie how weakening private sector union rights has helped the plight of the American worker, particularly in manufacturing? Because, you see, it seems blue collar workers bargaining power has gone way, way down over the last 30 years, which has coincided with the decline in labor unions. At best busting unions has no effect, as jobs will still be outsourced. At worst its part of the problem, so again I don't get the glee you do over this. Just so you get the question again, how has busting private sector unions benefited workers in the last 3 decades?
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
But are public service unions in the best interests of the public? St. FDR of the Liberals did not think so. St. Ron of the Right did not, either.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Giving workers a choice of whether or not to join a greedy union is the same as "busting" those unions and the same as "weakening. . .union rights?" Greedy unions can't sell the benefits of membership to workers, and need instead the coercive power of government to force people to join? Greedy unions and their demands play no part in outsourching? Greedy unions have been good for industries like auto manufacturing and steel? Greedy unions bear no responsibility whatsoever for the decline of those key American industries, and others? Seriously?
I don't think "union busting" (which you apparantly define as any resistance to anything any union anywhere has ever done or advocated) has had the draconian impact you suggest. You are so wrapped up in the mythology of unions you can't or won't see the changes in the world and American economy. Too busy singing "Union Miner," to notice the glory days of unions are gone forever. Well, things have changed and in many cases exorbitant union deals and demands have contributed to the outsourcing and plant closures you attribute to others. And which you claim to abhore.
The Japanese now manufacture their first rate automobiles here. Automobiles which are superior to comparable American models in terms of fit, finish, and just about any other measurement of quality you can name. And they're doing it with non-union American workers, who are delighted to have good paying jobs with good benefits. Somehow, these non-union American workers are able to build cars that blow the cars built by unionized Americans out of the water. I wonder why that is?
Americans in the private sector should be free to join or not join unions as they see fit. And bargain collectively if they choose. And they don't need the government's thumb on the scale, either. Like closed shop laws and the beloved "card check," which doubtless you approve of. Among the many problems faced by Hostess were the Teamsters, who had a deal that required separate trucks, one for bread another for snack cakes. Certainly you can't haul Wonderbread in the same truck with Twinkies.
Public sector unions are another matter entirely and should be eliminated.
Giving workers a choice of whether or not to join a greedy union is the same as "busting" those unions and the same as "weakening. . .union rights?" Greedy unions can't sell the benefits of membership to workers, and need instead the coercive power of government to force people to join? Greedy unions and their demands play no part in outsourching? Greedy unions have been good for industries like auto manufacturing and steel? Greedy unions bear no responsibility whatsoever for the decline of those key American industries, and others? Seriously?
I don't think "union busting" (which you apparantly define as any resistance to anything any union anywhere has ever done or advocated) has had the draconian impact you suggest. You are so wrapped up in the mythology of unions you can't or won't see the changes in the world and American economy. Too busy singing "Union Miner," to notice the glory days of unions are gone forever. Well, things have changed and in many cases exorbitant union deals and demands have contributed to the outsourcing and plant closures you attribute to others. And which you claim to abhore.
The Japanese now manufacture their first rate automobiles here. Automobiles which are superior to comparable American models in terms of fit, finish, and just about any other measurement of quality you can name. And they're doing it with non-union American workers, who are delighted to have good paying jobs with good benefits. Somehow, these non-union American workers are able to build cars that blow the cars built by unionized Americans out of the water. I wonder why that is?
Americans in the private sector should be free to join or not join unions as they see fit. And bargain collectively if they choose. And they don't need the government's thumb on the scale, either. Like closed shop laws and the beloved "card check," which doubtless you approve of. Among the many problems faced by Hostess were the Teamsters, who had a deal that required separate trucks, one for bread another for snack cakes. Certainly you can't haul Wonderbread in the same truck with Twinkies.
Public sector unions are another matter entirely and should be eliminated.
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FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Yes, but wasn't it FDR who championed the idea of closed unions in the first place (National Labour Relations Act of 1935), and the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 (under Truman, through an override of his veto) rescinded the allowance of "closed shops"?
Yes, but wasn't it FDR who championed the idea of closed unions in the first place (National Labour Relations Act of 1935), and the Taft-Hartley Act in 1947 (under Truman, through an override of his veto) rescinded the allowance of "closed shops"?
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
You seem to have the story backward. Much of what you call "union busting" actually happened from within. Unions typically (though not always, depends on how progressive their leadership is, see recent NJ teacher reform!) are anti-initiative; they want everyone treated the same. Ambitious workers want the chance to advance their careers. As the workplace demanded more training and skills, workers themselves grew restive under union restraints. In many places today, it's the workers who don't want unions coming in. Many times, when a vote to unionize is conducted, it's the workers who vote "no." That's not union "busting" now, is it?
Typical union work rules would forbid one set of workers from doing another's job. So you have a truck driver sitting around smoking a cigarette, talking to the forklift driver, (this was the 60s it was still cool to smoke) while other people load the truck. Now, if the truck driver gets bonus pay depending upon how quickly he can turn around his load, don't you think he'll want to pitch in and help, despite the union work rule?
Maybe that's a bad example. Unions played a tremendously valuable role in promoting workers' rights and we all acknowledge, respect, and appreciate it. Nowadays, savvy employers realize that people respond to incentives and provide them. Most unions tend to hate individual incentives because in their mind, that pits worker against worker. A few unions realize that incentives could be used to create a more cooperative work environment, as people helped each other reach their incentives; most of the time however the latter is more likely to happen despite the union not because of it (again, the recent NJ teachers reforms are a startling exception).
You also have a typical "either / or" mentality in which either unions protect workers or workers are exploited. Workers can band together without the formal structure of a union and negotiate with management, you know. Especially in smaller businesses, where versatility and flexibility are valued more highly than elsewhere.
Incentive pay can be a wonderful thing when workers' incentives are aligned with company goals. Everyone is a winner then. If you have a good HR department, that now takes over many of the functions a union used to provide, especially with OSHA, EEOC, etc. now in the picture.
Aren't you one of the people who lauds evolution and mocks intelligent design, when it comes to ecology and biology? How is it then when it comes to human society you are so strongly anti-evolution and so stridently in favor of intelligent design?
You seem to have the story backward. Much of what you call "union busting" actually happened from within. Unions typically (though not always, depends on how progressive their leadership is, see recent NJ teacher reform!) are anti-initiative; they want everyone treated the same. Ambitious workers want the chance to advance their careers. As the workplace demanded more training and skills, workers themselves grew restive under union restraints. In many places today, it's the workers who don't want unions coming in. Many times, when a vote to unionize is conducted, it's the workers who vote "no." That's not union "busting" now, is it?
Typical union work rules would forbid one set of workers from doing another's job. So you have a truck driver sitting around smoking a cigarette, talking to the forklift driver, (this was the 60s it was still cool to smoke) while other people load the truck. Now, if the truck driver gets bonus pay depending upon how quickly he can turn around his load, don't you think he'll want to pitch in and help, despite the union work rule?
Maybe that's a bad example. Unions played a tremendously valuable role in promoting workers' rights and we all acknowledge, respect, and appreciate it. Nowadays, savvy employers realize that people respond to incentives and provide them. Most unions tend to hate individual incentives because in their mind, that pits worker against worker. A few unions realize that incentives could be used to create a more cooperative work environment, as people helped each other reach their incentives; most of the time however the latter is more likely to happen despite the union not because of it (again, the recent NJ teachers reforms are a startling exception).
You also have a typical "either / or" mentality in which either unions protect workers or workers are exploited. Workers can band together without the formal structure of a union and negotiate with management, you know. Especially in smaller businesses, where versatility and flexibility are valued more highly than elsewhere.
Incentive pay can be a wonderful thing when workers' incentives are aligned with company goals. Everyone is a winner then. If you have a good HR department, that now takes over many of the functions a union used to provide, especially with OSHA, EEOC, etc. now in the picture.
Aren't you one of the people who lauds evolution and mocks intelligent design, when it comes to ecology and biology? How is it then when it comes to human society you are so strongly anti-evolution and so stridently in favor of intelligent design?
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
People don't "laud" evolution - they just believe that's how things, in fact, DO work. I've never seen anyone argue that evolution produces the BEST life forms, better than could even be created out of thin air by a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god. If such a god existed, his life forms would clearly be able to kick the butts of those created by a weak, slow, tedious, random process like evolution.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
You're working with a severe knowledge shortfall on this one. The Right to Work actually IS what was on the ballot in Michigan in November. The unions are the ones who didn't like how the vote turned out, so now they're turning to plan B ("riot in streets"). So before you make these threats about how you will "pay back" the government at the ballot box, be aware of the history. Yes, MI is a democrat state. It is no longer an "anything for labor unions" state. This was already voted on statewide. The unions lost.
Rovie Rovie Rovie. You've got your facts exactly backwards from reality on this one. Your guys lost, and lost big time.
You're working with a severe knowledge shortfall on this one. The Right to Work actually IS what was on the ballot in Michigan in November. The unions are the ones who didn't like how the vote turned out, so now they're turning to plan B ("riot in streets"). So before you make these threats about how you will "pay back" the government at the ballot box, be aware of the history. Yes, MI is a democrat state. It is no longer an "anything for labor unions" state. This was already voted on statewide. The unions lost.
Rovie Rovie Rovie. You've got your facts exactly backwards from reality on this one. Your guys lost, and lost big time.
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
Many also believe that God and evolution are working in concert. That is to say, life is a matter of a God set of rules and stadium...with evolution being how the game is played. As the outcome in biological life is quite good...is there a reason why we wouldn't accept a govt/society built stadium and set of rules...with business being how the game is played?
Many also believe that God and evolution are working in concert. That is to say, life is a matter of a God set of rules and stadium...with evolution being how the game is played. As the outcome in biological life is quite good...is there a reason why we wouldn't accept a govt/society built stadium and set of rules...with business being how the game is played?
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...
when you think about it, of course, "right to work" laws are simple, common sense reforms that all of us would have agreed on as a basic matter of principle from the beginning if not for the outsize influence wielded by the advertising of public sector unions the last 50 years or so. This law basically says if you don't want to, you can't be forced to pay dues to a union you have no desire to be a member of no matter where you work. It doesn't get any more American that that.
A friend of mine was a teacher, he found out that in Michigan, you couldn't (at that time) even teach in a public school without "giving" a portion of your paycheck to the teachers union. There was no opt-out available to ANY public school teacher back then, you were paying your own money to elect Democrats or you were not welcome in the profession. He saw virtually all that money being filtered into Democrats political campaigns (none going into actual education), fought the system for a while, decided it was stupid and pointless, quit, and became a millionaire in the trucking business outside the control of the teamsters.
If you need help understanding the outcome: (those of you in Rio Linda and Madison, WI): The smart people are not willing to be teachers in Michigan. What we are left with, thanks to the union control, are the sub-intelligent hacks that are unable to work to support themselves and are dependent on union power to ensure they cannot be fired no matter how terrible they are at doing the actual job (teaching the kids) that they were hired to do. (They are staying on as teachers for the guaranteed job security IN SPITE of being required to pledge their pay to the support of democrat politicians in perpetuity). Is this REALLY who we want to attract to the profession? Really? Nonsense.
You see that, I just educated you knuckleheads for free and I'm not even a union member!
when you think about it, of course, "right to work" laws are simple, common sense reforms that all of us would have agreed on as a basic matter of principle from the beginning if not for the outsize influence wielded by the advertising of public sector unions the last 50 years or so. This law basically says if you don't want to, you can't be forced to pay dues to a union you have no desire to be a member of no matter where you work. It doesn't get any more American that that.
A friend of mine was a teacher, he found out that in Michigan, you couldn't (at that time) even teach in a public school without "giving" a portion of your paycheck to the teachers union. There was no opt-out available to ANY public school teacher back then, you were paying your own money to elect Democrats or you were not welcome in the profession. He saw virtually all that money being filtered into Democrats political campaigns (none going into actual education), fought the system for a while, decided it was stupid and pointless, quit, and became a millionaire in the trucking business outside the control of the teamsters.
If you need help understanding the outcome: (those of you in Rio Linda and Madison, WI): The smart people are not willing to be teachers in Michigan. What we are left with, thanks to the union control, are the sub-intelligent hacks that are unable to work to support themselves and are dependent on union power to ensure they cannot be fired no matter how terrible they are at doing the actual job (teaching the kids) that they were hired to do. (They are staying on as teachers for the guaranteed job security IN SPITE of being required to pledge their pay to the support of democrat politicians in perpetuity). Is this REALLY who we want to attract to the profession? Really? Nonsense.
You see that, I just educated you knuckleheads for free and I'm not even a union member!
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