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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

For which all of those potential students in your economics classes should be profoundly grateful. If teachers think they're worth more pay and benefits, let them get it the old fashioned way. . .by earning it. As opposed to putting compliant officials in public office who are only too willing to fund gold plated pension and benefits plans out of the pockets of helpless taxpayers, in order to keep themselves in office. FDR said public sector employees should not be allowed to unionize, and he was right.

Sure. If you think deflation of the middle class and exponential inflation of the upper class is a good idea for a society. The thing you folks always forget is the numbers don't like. Right now the 1% are raking it in and the middle class is being left in shambles. And your solutions to our tax problems are always centered around taking from the poor and middle class.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

There's a variety of reasons, from location to a desire for a specific curriculum, such as religious classes. The largest, i suspect, has to do with the other students, not teaching quality. Public schools have to take everyone whether they want to learn or not. Private schools have more disciplinary freedom.

And yet, for generations, American public schools "took everyone" and had the best system in the world. We were proud that kids from different cultures, speaking different languages, could assimilate and excel. Now we make excuses about how hard things are. And don't expect teachers to do anything about it. Just accept third rate educations for our kids. It's the way things are. Move along. Nothing to see here.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

And yet, for generations, American public schools "took everyone" and had the best system in the world. We were proud that kids from different cultures, speaking different languages, could assimilate and excel. Now we make excuses about how hard things are. And don't expect teachers to do anything about it. Just accept third rate educations for our kids. It's the way things are. Move along. Nothing to see here.

LOL. You thought the rest of the world was just going to sit back and never improve didn't you? What a myopic view of the planet you have.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

One thing to remember, when it comes to earnings, is that if there are investors involved, the earnings are actually taxed twice. They are first taxed at the business level (whether it's claimed as individual self-employment or corporate; depends on the business) as with the earnings of any business, and then when they are paid as dividends, they are taxed again. Obviously you're trying to paint it as the investors looking like crooks, when it's really the government being greedy pigs when it comes to business earnings, especially if you're not touching things on the business end. If investors cash out or businesses check out, the government loses revenue, and the pig gets slaughtered. Obviously a compromise was reached in 2003 to encourage long-term investment in that you would only be able to take the lower rate if you kept your stake for a certain period of time. Remember that these investors technically have ownership in the company where they invest (assuming it's equity stock and not royalties; royalties are still treated at the traditional levels), so they're in effect paying, assuming a .06 state tax rate, .41 + (.21 * .59 * percentage of earnings allocated as dividends) on those net earnings. They're already sharing more of a burden on income than people that are only taking labour and royalties.

If you want to talk about "sharing the burden", perhaps we should look at earners that aren't paying anything at all, such as GE. How are they getting away with what they're doing? From there, close the loophole.

Everyone is greedy. I would say govt is probably inherently less greedy than individuals. But govt has much more power than an individual also.

I don't buy the argument that 'because we paid tax on our earning the first time...that income doesn't need to be taxed very much ever again'. Most money was not earned this year but rather years and more often decades ago. So if a lump sum was earned and taxes paid in 1990...that money has continued to make earnings every single year since then. So in the end, the money was taxed at a normal rate one time...but the ongoing earnings which are gained year after year are taxed at minimal amounts. Then you add earnings to the original lump sum every year...and the whole thing snowballs. All with very little taxation. If I am out working in some demanding job...I still have to pay taxes at the normal rate just as I did in 1990. So I don't get the same year after year break as money does. I think you could make a more effective argument that inheritance tax makes less sense...than that of lt cap gains. Additionally, we really should be rewarding people for their talent. The one thing I might be fine with is giving some kind of tax break on LT cap gains rates if you've actually also been paying normal taxes on income from your labor.

Taxing GE and other similar companies makes total sense. So does stopping corporate welfare and therefore, limiting special interests. One of the fist actions taken by the administration was getting rid of subsidies to big oil - the most profitable industry in the history of the planet. One could make the same argument for environmental technologies. Not surpisingly I think this is a place for an exception. Ridding ourselves of fossel fuels permanently is a massive payoff...and likewise, there's little doubt we could own this technology going forward. We need additional sectors where we can lead. Frankly, I think it could have been interesting to put all the stimulus money into getting us off of oil. But as folks aren't happy with govt doing it...it would have resulted in more subsidies for the private sector.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

LOL. You thought the rest of the world was just going to sit back and never improve didn't you? What a myopic view of the planet you have.

Yeah, that's the appropriate takeaway: "Old Pio's myopic because he misses the days when we actually educated our kids." As other nation's educational systems are on the way up, they've been passing our system, on the way down. Unless it's your point of view our kids are dumber than kids in other countries, and we have to make allowances.
 
Bottom line in Roverworld: teachers aren't responsible (to any extent) for the manifest failures of public education in America. Just keep shoveling the money at them. Who knows? Maybe the kids will magically begin to learn.

I remember vividly an interview in which Donahue was questioning Joe Clark about the drug dealers he had tossed out of school. Wondering what was going to happen to them. Clark mentioned adult education, the military, work (shudder). And when Donahue persisted, Joe pointed out that he had 2500 kids to worry about, and the futures of a handful of 19 year old "sophomores" weren't his problem.

The argument about private schools taking whom they choose is right out of the teachers union handbook. For years teachers unions in Chicago opposed Marva Collins' famed West Side Prep, using that same argument. It was bull sh*t then and it's bull sh*t now. Private schools don't have the luxury of essentially unlimited funding. They can't raise taxes to pay for their whims. They have to compete in the market place. Same with parochial schools. For generations, poor Protestant kids in Chicago have gone to parochial schools to at least get a chance at an education.

Its Rover Nation, not Roverworld, and welcome back from your board imposed "vacation".

You may have inadvertently hit upon something important, which is kids in public school who go to class solely for the purpose of dealing drugs or stealing from other students need to be turfed and quickly. Otherwise they're a disruption to the kids who want to learn. Problem is under your system, until these punks are shown the door they're disrupting class and getting all F's, but you would hold the teacher responsible for that. That's not fair.

So, drug dealing/drug possession = automatic expulsion. Fighting = two minutes in the box first time, second time 5 minute major. 3 strikes and you're out. Threatening fellow students = expulsion.

In the city I live near, I'll walk through a downtown shopping district occasionally and see about 100 school age kids hanging out at lunchtime during the school day. There's no schools around there. These kids are clearly skipping class, but its not the teacher's job to see to it that they attend. If the parents won't get them to go, kick them out. Only then will I sign up for these teacher evaluation metrics that you're advocating.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Everyone is greedy. I would say govt is probably inherently less greedy than individuals. But govt has much more power than an individual also.

I don't buy the argument that 'because we paid tax on our earning the first time...that income doesn't need to be taxed very much ever again'. Most money was not earned this year but rather years and more often decades ago. So if a lump sum was earned and taxes paid in 1990...that money has continued to make earnings every single year since then. So in the end, the money was taxed at a normal rate one time...but the ongoing earnings which are gained year after year are taxed at minimal amounts. Then you add earnings to the original lump sum every year...and the whole thing snowballs. All with very little taxation. If I am out working in some demanding job...I still have to pay taxes at the normal rate just as I did in 1990. So I don't get the same year after year break as money does. I think you could make a more effective argument that inheritance tax makes less sense...than that of lt cap gains. Additionally, we really should be rewarding people for their talent. The one thing I might be fine with is giving some kind of tax break on LT cap gains rates if you've actually also been paying normal taxes on income from your labor.

Taxing GE and other similar companies makes total sense. So does stopping corporate welfare and therefore, limiting special interests. One of the fist actions taken by the administration was getting rid of subsidies to big oil - the most profitable industry in the history of the planet. One could make the same argument for environmental technologies. Not surpisingly I think this is a place for an exception. Ridding ourselves of fossel fuels permanently is a massive payoff...and likewise, there's little doubt we could own this technology going forward. We need additional sectors where we can lead. Frankly, I think it could have been interesting to put all the stimulus money into getting us off of oil. But as folks aren't happy with govt doing it...it would have resulted in more subsidies for the private sector.

If anything, I would have suggested the complete opposite on capital gains. Tax that fully regardless of time held, because that is truly based upon the appreciation of the value of whatever it is you are selling, whether it be a house, equity stake in a company, stake in a royalty, whatever it may be. Also, I don't think you're understanding what I am saying when it comes to dividend earnings because you are only looking at the investor, and are not taking the taxable asset into account. In this case, the asset is a business; something that, in and of itself, is taxed. I'm not going to try to explain it a second time, as it will wear out this keyboard; I'll simply ask you to read it again and look at the large picture. Now, when it comes to interest paid on bank or similar institute accounts, I can understand that fee being taxed at the full rate. In addition, this is another reason why this interest (at least in terms of real estate and tuition) is not taxed on the payee side, since it is already being taxed on the payer side. Labour truly is the person, so absolutely look at the person. Royalties earned on an asset are typically based on gross revenue, so it's certainly appropriate to tax that at the full rate, while the business typically deducts the royalty as a cost of business.

As for the second paragraph, you're falling into the same trap that GE and other companies exposed. I would highly recommend against calling for "pet project" subsidies, because that's one of the factors that got us into this mess in the first place. Also, the reason that people aren't happy with the green energy subsidies is because there aren't enough customers to buy the product due to lack of efficiency (whether it's cost related, output related, and/or something else), and that wasn't forecast by the investor because the investor basically chose to go all-in blind. It's like buying a car that turns out to be a lemon.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Sure. If you think deflation of the middle class and exponential inflation of the upper class is a good idea for a society. The thing you folks always forget is the numbers don't like. Right now the 1% are raking it in and the middle class is being left in shambles. And your solutions to our tax problems are always centered around taking from the poor and middle class.

You may not be aware of it. After all, you're evidently consumed with defending second rate teachers with third rate "economics," but the election is over. And your side won. And the problems remain. Getting a handle on runaway teacher benefits and salaries has nothing whatsoever to do with "the 1%." And if anything is leaving the middle class in "shambles" it's a 3rd world educational system whose teachers demand first world pay and benefits.

Your "brain," such as it is, evidently cannot see anything beyond an Obama campaign spot. Here's a little sight: I have offered no "solutions to our tax problems." If I had, I would have pointed out that containing education spending for overpaid, underperforming teachers would help those "poor" folks you claim to bleed for. Maybe some of those union hacks can get jobs in the private sector, but I doubt it.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Yeah, that's the appropriate takeaway: "Old Pio's myopic because he misses the days when we actually educated our kids." As other nation's educational systems are on the way up, they've been passing our system, on the way down. Unless it's your point of view our kids are dumber than kids in other countries, and we have to make allowances.

From what I see every day kids are smarter on average than they were when I went to school. It's the fact that you don't see that that's laughable to me.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

You may not be aware of it. After all, you're evidently consumed with defending second rate teachers with third rate "economics," but the election is over. And your side won. And the problems remain. Getting a handle on runaway teacher benefits and salaries has nothing whatsoever to do with "the 1%." And if anything is leaving the middle class in "shambles" it's a 3rd world educational system whose teachers demand first world pay and benefits.

Your "brain," such as it is, evidently cannot see anything beyond an Obama campaign spot. Here's a little sight: I have offered no "solutions to our tax problems." If I had, I would have pointed out that containing education spending for overpaid, underperforming teachers would help those "poor" folks you claim to bleed for. Maybe some of those union hacks can get jobs in the private sector, but I doubt it.

Maybe some of these 1%ers can come in and run the school system better, but I doubt it. Same fools who think they can run government like a business.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

From what I see every day kids are smarter on average than they were when I went to school. It's the fact that you don't see that that's laughable to me.

What are you using as a gauge for intelligence?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

You may not be aware of it. After all, you're evidently consumed with defending second rate teachers with third rate "economics," but the election is over. And your side won. And the problems remain. Getting a handle on runaway teacher benefits and salaries has nothing whatsoever to do with "the 1%." And if anything is leaving the middle class in "shambles" it's a 3rd world educational system whose teachers demand first world pay and benefits.

Your "brain," such as it is, evidently cannot see anything beyond an Obama campaign spot. Here's a little sight: I have offered no "solutions to our tax problems." If I had, I would have pointed out that containing education spending for overpaid, underperforming teachers would help those "poor" folks you claim to bleed for. Maybe some of those union hacks can get jobs in the private sector, but I doubt it.
OP, I get a kick out of a lot of your posts, but the "decline of the American education system" story isn't one I buy. In fact, I've generally assumed it's an argument that has been advanced by those who support increased spending on teachers and schools, including teacher's unions.

Fact is I don't think there has ever been a time where the U.S. has been at or near the top in any sort of standardized testing processes that are used to make these comparisons. In fact, I think we've traditionally been near the bottom.

I don't have the facts immediately at hand to lend support to this argument, and don't have time to look for them. But I recall reading any number of articles about this that show ever since the whole standardized testing, and comparisons among countries first started 50 years ago or more, we've generally compared poorly. Maybe someone else has some information that shows different.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

What are you using as a gauge for intelligence?

My daughters coursework in High School compared to mine. What I've seen throughout both my daughters time in school from age 3 to now the oldest at age 17.
 
OP, I get a kick out of a lot of your posts, but the "decline of the American education system" story isn't one I buy. In fact, I've generally assumed it's an argument that has been advanced by those who support increased spending on teachers and schools, including teacher's unions.

Fact is I don't think there has ever been a time where the U.S. has been at or near the top in any sort of standardized testing processes that are used to make these comparisons. In fact, I think we've traditionally been near the bottom.

I don't have the facts immediately at hand to lend support to this argument, and don't have time to look for them. But I recall reading any number of articles about this that show ever since the whole standardized testing, and comparisons among countries first started 50 years ago or more, we've generally compared poorly. Maybe someone else has some information that shows different.

I think its tough to do the comparisons. 1) I don't think any other country has as many people in it who don't speak the primary language which will obviously hurt test scores. 2) Some countries only have the best of the best in their results. For example, China produced results from their wealthiest school district in Shanghai. Of course the scores were stellar, but I doubt they had too many rural peasants in there. I'm not sure gypsies are being included in several European nations either.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Its Rover Nation, not Roverworld, and welcome back from your board imposed "vacation".

You may have inadvertently hit upon something important, which is kids in public school who go to class solely for the purpose of dealing drugs or stealing from other students need to be turfed and quickly. Otherwise they're a disruption to the kids who want to learn. Problem is under your system, until these punks are shown the door they're disrupting class and getting all F's, but you would hold the teacher responsible for that. That's not fair.

So, drug dealing/drug possession = automatic expulsion. Fighting = two minutes in the box first time, second time 5 minute major. 3 strikes and you're out. Threatening fellow students = expulsion.

In the city I live near, I'll walk through a downtown shopping district occasionally and see about 100 school age kids hanging out at lunchtime during the school day. There's no schools around there. These kids are clearly skipping class, but its not the teacher's job to see to it that they attend. If the parents won't get them to go, kick them out. Only then will I sign up for these teacher evaluation metrics that you're advocating.

Teacher evaluation metrics? Where did I mention that? Look, teaching in big cities in this country is a complicated business. And teachers aren't the only problem. Maybe not even the biggest problem. But teachers are the only ones involved in the process who get paid with taxpayer money. And they are they only ones who have unionized, to protect and enhance their rice bowls, regardless of how good a job they do.

We persist in using words which have lost much of their traditional meaning. "Family" is right at the top of the list. Someone says "family" and many of us think of Ward, June, Wally and The Beaver. In far too many instances, the truth is much uglier and more difficult for the children. The various social pathologies in our big cities are resistant to change and certainly won't be ameliorated by paying teachers more. But that's the reality we live with.

Teachers unions, like all unions, are primarily concerned with increasing membership (which helps the bottom line and improves clout) and they focus on pay, benefits and working conditions. No direct correlation between improvements in those areas and improvements in learning has been shown.

Over the years we've tried various nostrums guaranteed to improve student performance. Remember busing? Professor Coleman at the University of Chicago was the pioneer. Sending kids from poorly performing schools to better performing ones would help their education. And introduce them to better off (read white) kids, which would have positive societal benefits. The problem was, busing advocates also wanted kids from good schools punished by being sent to bad schools. Boston Southies weren't too impressed. A mob of them nearly undressed Ted Kennedy. Eventually, free Americans voted with their feet, and moved out of the jurisdictions of big city systems. Busing advocates then demanded that forced busing across city lines was the "only" way we were going to solve the "problem." Nevermind the implicit notion that kids belong to the state, to be done with as educrats please. There was also the very real problem of kids getting up earlier and home later, and spending an hour or two in a bus. Every single day. Not to mention the expense. Detroit had to buy and insure and hire people to drive 300 buses! After studying several years of busing data, Dr. Coleman changed his mind and said he was wrong. He was immediately pronounced senile by people who had previously hung on his every word.

For a while bi-lingual education was touted as the solution for kids for whom English was a second language. Advocates suggested kids should be taught in bi-lingual classes K-12. Now when school districts began looking for biology teachers who could also speak Spanish (or any other language) which credential do you suppose became more important? Many underqualified people became "teachers" primarily because they could speak another language. I guess we've largely abandoned that particular will o the wisp these days.

Some years ago a federal judge took over the school system in Kansas City because, he ruled, the "white" schools had more whistles and bells than the "black" schools. He manadated a tsunami of spending, green houses, gymnasiums, swimming pools, etc. All with an eye toward getting white students to attend those black schools. Guess what? Didn't happen.

Of course the most outrageous "educational" notion (perhaps in world history) came from Oakland, where presumably serious public officials advocated "Ebonics" as an acceptable substitute for written and spoken English. Al Green, who was then president of the NAACP in Houston, who is now in Congress, once told me that every teacher of inner city kids should be an English teacher, too. Amen, brother Green. David Duke could not have advocated anything more destructive for the education or prospects of young black kids than "Ebonics."

I was working in Seattle a while back and they have a program which encourages executives to work in inner city schools, to give those kids some sense of what's possible. A very highly paid Microsoft executive was volunteering in an inner city school, and got himself into trouble. One of his black students referred to someone or something as being "faggy"(or something similar). The volunteer asked the kid how he would like it if someone called him an n-word. This touched off the customary hullabaloo from the NAACP, which accused the guy of being a racist (naturally), and he quit. I've always thought if he really was a racist, he probably wouldn't have been volunteering at a majority black school. This might have been an opportunity for one of those "teaching moments" we hear so much about. But no, this highly successful executive, who could bring a tremendous amount of real world experience and success to help motivate these kids was driven out by political correctness.

I've mentioned Marva Collins and West Side Prep. The Chicago teachers unions bitterly opposed her at every turn. And repeatedly made the argument about private schools being "selective." In fact, many of her students had flunked out of CPS but wound up flourishing at West Side. I've posted before about the 60 Minutes segment where Morley Safer asked a beautiful little girl who her favorite author was. "Chaucer," she said. Well, she may have been showing off. But the fact was, she knew there was a dude out there named Chaucer.

We've spent and are spending trillions of dollars on public education. Every state has mandatory attendance laws 'till age 18. We've invested untold sums in educational infrastructure. Yet, we aren't getting our money's worth. And the ones shortchanged the most are the ones who need the education the most. Single parent kids from tough neighborhoods. Kids who are more familiar with the ills of society than anyone should be. I'm selfish. I want every American kid. Every American kid, to get at least a first rate secondary eduction. An education that familiarizes them with computers and prepares them for the jobs they'll be competing for in the future. Selfish? Because as more of these young people become productive members of society, fewer of them will become criminals or inmates, thus reducing my tax burdon to house, feed and clothe them.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I think its tough to do the comparisons. 1) I don't think any other country has as many people in it who don't speak the primary language which will obviously hurt test scores. 2) Some countries only have the best of the best in their results. For example, China produced results from their wealthiest school district in Shanghai. Of course the scores were stellar, but I doubt they had too many rural peasants in there. I'm not sure gypsies are being included in several European nations either.

C'mon. China would never lie about things like that. They wouldn't shut down smog producing facilities during the Olympics either.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

OP, I get a kick out of a lot of your posts, but the "decline of the American education system" story isn't one I buy. In fact, I've generally assumed it's an argument that has been advanced by those who support increased spending on teachers and schools, including teacher's unions.

Fact is I don't think there has ever been a time where the U.S. has been at or near the top in any sort of standardized testing processes that are used to make these comparisons. In fact, I think we've traditionally been near the bottom.

I don't have the facts immediately at hand to lend support to this argument, and don't have time to look for them. But I recall reading any number of articles about this that show ever since the whole standardized testing, and comparisons among countries first started 50 years ago or more, we've generally compared poorly. Maybe someone else has some information that shows different.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps we've always done a lousy job in public education when compared to other countries. But we are manifestly doing worse now than in the past. And how does that excuse the greed and ineptitude displayed and encouraged by teachers unions? As I've said, to my knowledge, no correlation has been shown between teacher pay and benefits, and class room performance.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Maybe some of these 1%ers can come in and run the school system better, but I doubt it. Same fools who think they can run government like a business.

Is there some USCHO sponsored non-sequitor contest that was announced during my banishment? So it's your belief that, say, Bill Gates (just to name one) couldn't run a high school? Probably not, because he don't have no ejumacation courses on his transcript. Keep yapping about 1% though, it's good fun. And shows how dedicated you are to a serious discussion of these issues.

Some years ago in Houston there was a grammar (or middle) school principal at an inner city school whose students were doing better than other inner city kids on standardized tests. He evidently came up with some creative ways of getting through to his kids (like Jaime Escalante) and the poobahs at HISD treated him the same way Escalante was: he had to be cheating. Turns out he wasn't (although there are far too many instances where cheating does occur) and HISD grudgingly promoted him with an eye toward expanding his methods to other schools. What a concept: identify and reward the creative. Houston media refer to HISD headquarters as the "Taj Mahal." An impressive building, full to the brim with EdDs, almost none of whom do anything even remotely linked to educating kids.

BTW, I just found this California Federation of Teachers video, narrated by that tired old irritating lefty (no, not Scooby) Ed Asner. Pretty much exemplifies the scapegoating of "the 1%" as the source of all our ills. And demonstrates the depth of the "thought" these libstains bring to the party.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cwg4DB-EeEA
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If anything, I would have suggested the complete opposite on capital gains. Tax that fully regardless of time held, because that is truly based upon the appreciation of the value of whatever it is you are selling, whether it be a house, equity stake in a company, stake in a royalty, whatever it may be.
...

Now, when it comes to interest paid on bank or similar institute accounts, I can understand that fee being taxed at the full rate. In addition, this is another reason why this interest (at least in terms of real estate and tuition) is not taxed on the payee side, since it is already being taxed on the payer side. Labour truly is the person, so absolutely look at the person. Royalties earned on an asset are typically based on gross revenue, so it's certainly appropriate to tax that at the full rate, while the business typically deducts the royalty as a cost of business.

As for the second paragraph, you're falling into the same trap that GE and other companies exposed. I would highly recommend against calling for "pet project" subsidies, because that's one of the factors that got us into this mess in the first place. Also, the reason that people aren't happy with the green energy subsidies is because there aren't enough customers to buy the product due to lack of efficiency (whether it's cost related, output related, and/or something else), and that wasn't forecast by the investor because the investor basically chose to go all-in blind. It's like buying a car that turns out to be a lemon.

I've really been talking about LT cap gains rates (and other long term investments such as savings accounts). Perhaps we're on a similar page. I do get that dividends were already taxed and that makes it more borderline. Regardless, if it gets company's to take a longer term focus and reinvest funds into development (rather than maximizing the next quarter for a dividend), it could well be better for the economy anyways. Again, somebody has to be taxed.

The long term is why you consider getting off oil. Alternatives will be in full swing later in our life times anyways...its just whether its led by foriegner or the US technology. This will determine who owns the sector. We've already got at least one fighter in the ring...let's hope he gets a first round knockout: http://www.teslamotors.com/models
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I've really been talking about LT cap gains rates (and other long term investments such as savings accounts). Perhaps we're on a similar page. I do get that dividends were already taxed and that makes it more borderline. Regardless, if it gets company's to take a longer term focus and reinvest funds into development (rather than maximizing the next quarter for a dividend), it could well be better for the economy anyways. Again, somebody has to be taxed.

The long term is why you consider getting off oil. Alternatives will be in full swing later in our life times anyways...its just whether its led by foriegner or the US technology. This will determine who owns the sector. We've already got at least one fighter in the ring...let's hope he gets a first round knockout: http://www.teslamotors.com/models

Do you not understand the market?! Electric cars don't sell. People don't want the Volt. People don't want to pay up the wazoo for a Tesla. Why? Not only is there not the infrastructure for charging, nor do people want to wait for the vehicle to charge, but now you're dumping medium-distance travel. Looks like you're not going to the Ralph to see the Gophers play because your vehicle can't make it there and back without waiting 16 hours for the thing to charge in the middle. Not to mention, people understand that the energy has to come from somewhere. An electric bill that ends up rising higher than what they paid for gas isn't going to be appreciated.

As for your thoughts on how companies work, they aren't dumb enough to throw their entire EPS at a dividend. People don't invest in that sort of thing. Granted, some people do yield investing (such as myself; after all, a company must give me a monetary reason to give them money in exchange for equity), but you really have to pay attention to the financials. I'm not going through that explanation again; you can see it on the stock market thread. As for long term, if you were to say to an investor that any capital gain is taxed at the full rate but the company will pay the entire brunt of your dividend, that just screams buy-and-hold to me. I know you're concerned about the reinvestment of money... have you heard of DRIPs? These are Dividend ReInvestment Plans, where brokers will automatically take the dividend and purchase more shares of the stock at market price. If you want a decent position in a company, but can't afford to buy the whole thing at once, it's a great way to build it up and also compound your earnings.
 
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