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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Many also believe that God and evolution are working in concert. That is to say, life is a matter of a God set of rules and stadium...with evolution being how the game is played. As the outcome in biological life is quite good...is there a reason why we wouldn't accept a govt/society built stadium and set of rules...with business being how the game is played?

There's one big thing you're forgetting, and that's that there are many different games out there. This is one reason why there is so much backlash when it comes to the UN and the New World Order, because they create a monopoly over those games. I don't think I need to explain to you what happens with monopolies, especially inelastic ones.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If you need help understanding the outcome: (those of you in Rio Linda and Madison, WI): The smart people are not willing to be teachers in Michigan. What we are left with, thanks to the union control, are the sub-intelligent hacks that are unable to work to support themselves and are dependent on union power to ensure they cannot be fired no matter how terrible they are at doing the actual job (teaching the kids) that they were hired to do. (They are staying on as teachers for the guaranteed job security IN SPITE of being required to pledge their pay to the support of democrat politicians in perpetuity). Is this REALLY who we want to attract to the profession? Really? Nonsense.

You see that, I just educated you knuckleheads for free and I'm not even a union member! :D

If you call that educating, I can certainly understand why you'd have a disdain for teachers.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

If you call that educating, I can certainly understand why you'd have a disdain for teachers.

Think about it for a second: The ONLY people who were teachers in Michigan were those who thought it was best if they gave a big chunk of every paycheck to a political party. They are the ones teaching decision-making skills to our kids. How is this good for anyone? It's high time it was fixed, if you ask me. Give people the choice to opt out. If the union membership is all it's claimed to be, those teachers will be more than happy to continue the contributions. If they're not getting their money's worth, they'll quit contributing. Guess what the union is afraid of? That they won't survive if the teachers aren't required by law to contribute. What does that tell you about the ROI of the union dues they're kicking in? Think.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Think about it for a second: The ONLY people who were teachers in Michigan were those who thought it was best if they gave a big chunk of every paycheck to a political party. They are the ones teaching decision-making skills to our kids. How is this good for anyone? It's high time it was fixed, if you ask me. Give people the choice to opt out. If the union membership is all it's claimed to be, those teachers will be more than happy to continue the contributions. If they're not getting their money's worth, they'll quit contributing. Guess what the union is afraid of? That they won't survive if the teachers aren't required by law to contribute. What does that tell you about the ROI of the union dues they're kicking in? Think.

Actually, there is a federal law (I believe part of Taft-Hartley) that states unions must disclose how much of the dues go towards political activity, and that they must not charge the portion of dues going towards politics that a worker has specifically requested not be collected. Of course, the unions are good at hiding this, and sneak it in.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Actually, there is a federal law (I believe part of Taft-Hartley) that states unions must disclose how much of the dues go towards political activity, and that they must not charge the portion of dues going towards politics that a worker has specifically requested not be collected. Of course, the unions are good at hiding this, and sneak it in.
I know for a fact this law, if still active, has been blatantly ignored. The friend I mentioned earlier put in a lot of effort to steer his contributions away from political campaigns, and finally his only recourse was to quit teaching altogether.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I know for a fact this law, if still active, has been blatantly ignored. The friend I mentioned earlier put in a lot of effort to steer his contributions away from political campaigns, and finally his only recourse was to quit teaching altogether.

Any lawsuit brought would also need an extortion claim attached to make sure it goes quickly, since the union will look to waste your money.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Strikes me as interesting that the Democrats, who claim to want to regulate anything that even smells like a for-profit venture into the ground until there are no private businesses left at all, are so eager to bend over and just take it from the union bosses year after year. Why are they to be given dictatorial powers over who is allowed to work, while "big business" must be put down at all costs to society? It seems the priorities of that party are reversed in the case of who needs stricter regulations.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Many also believe that God and evolution are working in concert. That is to say, life is a matter of a God set of rules and stadium...with evolution being how the game is played. As the outcome in biological life is quite good...is there a reason why we wouldn't accept a govt/society built stadium and set of rules...with business being how the game is played?
Well, this depends on a value judgement of whether life (as we know it) really is "quite good." It is quite egocentric to state, "Life must be good, because it produced me!" Life on this earth is extremely imperfect - cancers, disease, birth defects, extinctions due to inability to adapt, etc. Any designer intelligent enough to have created this kind of life should have been able to do an even better job of it, in my opinion. To me, life's imperfections are rather convincing evidence for evolution - the only sorts of life which are able to survive are those which DO have occasional mutations. Most are harmful and those creatures die out, but the one-in-a-million useful mutations allow life to advance.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Well, this depends on a value judgement of whether life (as we know it) really is "quite good." It is quite egocentric to state, "Life must be good, because it produced me!" Life on this earth is extremely imperfect - cancers, disease, birth defects, extinctions due to inability to adapt, etc. Any designer intelligent enough to have created this kind of life should have been able to do an even better job of it, in my opinion. To me, life's imperfections are rather convincing evidence for evolution - the only sorts of life which are able to survive are those which DO have occasional mutations. Most are harmful and those creatures die out, but the one-in-a-million useful mutations allow life to advance.

No problem, but there must be rules. Who set up the rules (intelligent design)? I believe God set up the rules and we're playing it out according to the rules. The rules allow for ringers (mutations), mergers, divisions, and all sorts of stuff. In other words, there are not many restrictions on what can happen, but these two that seem to be inviolate - birth and death.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Strikes me as interesting that the Democrats, who claim to want to regulate anything that even smells like a for-profit venture into the ground until there are no private businesses left at all, are so eager to bend over and just take it from the union bosses year after year. Why are they to be given dictatorial powers over who is allowed to work, while "big business" must be put down at all costs to society? It seems the priorities of that party are reversed in the case of who needs stricter regulations.

You're assuming that they're betting the pass line.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Well, this depends on a value judgement of whether life (as we know it) really is "quite good." It is quite egocentric to state, "Life must be good, because it produced me!" Life on this earth is extremely imperfect - cancers, disease, birth defects, extinctions due to inability to adapt, etc. Any designer intelligent enough to have created this kind of life should have been able to do an even better job of it, in my opinion. To me, life's imperfections are rather convincing evidence for evolution - the only sorts of life which are able to survive are those which DO have occasional mutations. Most are harmful and those creatures die out, but the one-in-a-million useful mutations allow life to advance.

I'm way off topic here, but this reminds me

I believe that Dr. George Coyne, S.J. (former director of the Vatican Observatory) basically says that at least everything from the big bang until now is explained by science, that intelligent design isn't science and shouldn't be taught as such, and that we are a result of a lot of chance encounters (including elements produced by fusion in stars and then dispersed when the star explodes later coming together with other elements under the right circumstances to form more complex molecules) and he admitted, when questioned, that if you rewound time and started over the development and rise of humans would not be a foregone conclusion. He also said that the bible was written long before modern science, and therefore it contains no science, and that a literal interpretation of the bible is "a real problem". I am not religious (although I was raised Catholic) but I am glad at least some religious leaders aren't completely insane when it comes to science. Hell, even Pat Robertson said there is no way the earth is 6,000 years old and that we have dinosaur fossils and carbon dating and we can't deny observable fact.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Well, this depends on a value judgement of whether life (as we know it) really is "quite good." It is quite egocentric to state, "Life must be good, because it produced me!" Life on this earth is extremely imperfect - cancers, disease, birth defects, extinctions due to inability to adapt, etc. Any designer intelligent enough to have created this kind of life should have been able to do an even better job of it, in my opinion. To me, life's imperfections are rather convincing evidence for evolution - the only sorts of life which are able to survive are those which DO have occasional mutations. Most are harmful and those creatures die out, but the one-in-a-million useful mutations allow life to advance.

hmm...you used the word "advance" which also implicity contains a value judgment, no?

As I understand it, Darwin had a highly-technical definition of "fitness" which was limited strictly to how well an organism could survive in a particular setting. In other words, you might say "all evolution is local." Change the environment, change the selection pressure.

There was a famous case about moths in England. Their wings mimicked the coloration of the bark on certain trees. Usually the bark on these trees was something like light gray, and so most of the moths were light gray. Then a factory opened nearby (this was like in the 1950s if I recall correctly) and soot from the factory discolored the bark on the trees, making it dark gray. Pretty soon, most of the moths were dark gray.

There's no "advance" one way or the other, there is merely adaptation to the circumstances at hand.



In the post that started this mini-firestorm, I was engaging in banter more than serious talk. Nevertheless, the subsequent dialog does indicate that human beings also respond to selection pressure, and much of our recent debate has been over how to adjust the incentives to which people respond. Many of us feel that it is far too dangerous for the moral health of society to degrade the concept of personal responsibility and accountability for the consequences of one's actions. Look at how obesity is becoming such a problem! Yet rather than incent obese people to change their behaviors, we are asking businesses to accomodate obese people instead. How soon until obesity is one of the accomodations required under the Americans with Disabilities Act?

Slothfulness is also a growing problem, yet the most popular "solution" is to punish the industrious ones. :(
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

hmm...you used the word "advance" which also implicity contains a value judgment, no?

As I understand it, Darwin had a highly-technical definition of "fitness" which was limited strictly to how well an organism could survive in a particular setting. In other words, you might say "all evolution is local." Change the environment, change the selection pressure.

There was a famous case about moths in England. Their wings mimicked the coloration of the bark on certain trees. Usually the bark on these trees was something like light gray, and so most of the moths were light gray. Then a factory opened nearby (this was like in the 1950s if I recall correctly) and soot from the factory discolored the bark on the trees, making it dark gray. Pretty soon, most of the moths were dark gray.

There's no "advance" one way or the other, there is merely adaptation to the circumstances at hand.



In the post that started this mini-firestorm, I was engaging in banter more than serious talk. Nevertheless, the subsequent dialog does indicate that human beings also respond to selection pressure, and much of our recent debate has been over how to adjust the incentives to which people respond. Many of us feel that it is far too dangerous for the moral health of society to degrade the concept of personal responsibility and accountability for the consequences of one's actions. Look at how obesity is becoming such a problem! Yet rather than incent obese people to change their behaviors, we are asking businesses to accomodate obese people instead.

Slothfulness is also a growing problem, yet the most popular "solution" is to punish the industrious ones. :(
Absolutely correct. I should have used the word "change" rather than "advance."
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Strikes me as interesting that the Democrats, who claim to want to regulate anything that even smells like a for-profit venture into the ground until there are no private businesses left at all, are so eager to bend over and just take it from the union bosses year after year. Why are they to be given dictatorial powers over who is allowed to work, while "big business" must be put down at all costs to society? It seems the priorities of that party are reversed in the case of who needs stricter regulations.

In terms of their life styles, fat cat union bosses are largely indistinguishable from the executives whom they reflexively condemn. They belong to private country clubs. Send their kids to ritzy private schools and on to private colleges. They drive luxury cars. Have a summer place. Their wives wear mink. They regularly travel to Europe and elsewhere. And they rarely dine at fast food places. Yet the 30's Woody Guthrie/Pete Seeger rhetoric flows from their lips like wine at a mob wedding.

Sort of like the end of "Animal Farm," where you could no longer tell the difference between the pigs and the humans.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Sort of like the end of "Animal Farm," where you could no longer tell the difference between the pigs and the humans.

There's a difference? Often I think that the more people I meet, the more I love my cats.:eek:
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

There's a difference? Often I think that the more people I meet, the more I love my cats.:eek:

Seriously. You know how many times a day I find myself quoting Team America's interpretation of Kim Jong-Il?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm way off topic here, but this reminds me

I believe that Dr. George Coyne, S.J. (former director of the Vatican Observatory) basically says that at least everything from the big bang until now is explained by science, that intelligent design isn't science and shouldn't be taught as such, and that we are a result of a lot of chance encounters (including elements produced by fusion in stars and then dispersed when the star explodes later coming together with other elements under the right circumstances to form more complex molecules) and he admitted, when questioned, that if you rewound time and started over the development and rise of humans would not be a foregone conclusion. He also said that the bible was written long before modern science, and therefore it contains no science, and that a literal interpretation of the bible is "a real problem". I am not religious (although I was raised Catholic) but I am glad at least some religious leaders aren't completely insane when it comes to science. Hell, even Pat Robertson said there is no way the earth is 6,000 years old and that we have dinosaur fossils and carbon dating and we can't deny observable fact.

Pretty much.

Even Coyne would be wise to remember that it was Jesus that was really God himself and it is his messages that are the priority over the balance of the Bible. The literal message is not an issue when you focus on Jesus and in that case, the message and science are hand in glove. From what I can see, Coyne missed that 'minor' point.

There's one big thing you're forgetting, and that's that there are many different games out there. This is one reason why there is so much backlash when it comes to the UN and the New World Order, because they create a monopoly over those games. I don't think I need to explain to you what happens with monopolies, especially inelastic ones.

Hmmm...interesting tangent. Somebody's itching to talk about the UN. :)

It doesn't belong in a singular system analogy. A far more accurate analogy in that case...is a small desert island with a large number of conflicted and armed inhabitants and limited resources. Having everyone work together will allow the group to flourish. Its how civilization happened thousands of years ago. If working together is a lower priority for you than 'you getting yours'...even if you have a gun, you'd best sleep light.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Pretty much.

Even Coyne would be wise to remember that it was Jesus that was really God himself and it is his messages that are the priority over the balance of the Bible. The literal message is not an issue when you focus on Jesus and in that case, the message and science are hand in glove. From what I can see, Coyne missed that 'minor' point.

Is that the Jesus with the long straight brown hair, high nordic cheekbones, blue eyes, and california tan whose picture hangs in every church basement in the country?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Is that the Jesus with the long straight brown hair, high nordic cheekbones, blue eyes, and california tan whose picture hangs in every church basement in the country?

And the one who would be lighting the first candle to celebrate the first night of Chanukah tonight?
 
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