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2012 Elections in 3-D!

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Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

Another [spin] is: progressives believe that government can help people while the rest of you think that the only function government can possibly serve is to screw people over.

and what kind of generalization is this?? :p

I do believe that government has the capacity to help people as long as we remember that government -- any government -- is run by human beings, and human beings by their nature are fallible, and so a separation of powers and limited government are essential. I've argued before in other posts that the Food and Drug Administration, for example, is a reasonable function of government, and so your generalization is belied when you use the term "the rest of you" to dismiss legitimate concerns about the need for restraint on "excessive" government power.

I do not think it is unfair to say that generally progressives tend to be optismistic about human nature (I am tempted to use the word "unduly optimistic" here except that would then be shading the argument and validate your criticism!). The idea that a government program might be scammed by fraudsters, you must admist, does not seem to be included during their initial planning stages; most of the fraud seems to be discovered retroactively, and people always seem to be surprised by it this time.

In other words, government can help people and government can also screw people over. It is foolish not to admit the former, it is dangerously naive to overlook the latter.
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

We've all heard the list of greatest lies ever told, and most versions of that list have "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you" on that list.

I know, right? Like during WW2. Thank God the government didn't intervene there.


Libertarians believe government power automatically will be used for bad; the rest of us have too much real life experience to the contrary actually to believe that.

FYP

(Please don't be discouraged. I find von Miseans really entertaining. As long as they're under 30 and have no kids or other responsibilities.)
 
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Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

In other words, government can help people and government can also screw people over. It is foolish not to admit the former, it is dangerously naive to overlook the latter.
True. And while there is an entire industry getting rich off legions of people who believe the former, nobody believes the latter.

On a 10 point scale where The Truth is probably a 5, this is an argument between minarchist 1's and liberal 6's. The latter are closer to the truth. Simple math. :)
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

I know, right? Like during WW2. Thank God the government didn't intervene there.

Channeling your inner Krugman today? What this country really needs is an invasion from outer space, that would unite us in common purpose! :rolleyes:
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

Channeling your inner Krugman today? What this country really needs is an invasion from outer space, that would unite us in common purpose! :rolleyes:

Thomas Whitmore for President!
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aUdB8gCMcXI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

and what kind of generalization is this?? :p

When you did the tongue-sticky-outy smiley did you believe you were sagely noticing something that I was "slipping in" on you? Does that mean that you stopped reading before you got to the part where I said:
The thing is, these are equally (un)true generalizations.

You're not changing my opinion much. About every other post you make has some outrageous generalization that you spin as neutral fact. My favorite is the way you backpedal when called on it.

Me? I am a flaming, bleeding-heart, obnoxious, loud-mouthed liberal who wishes Obama weren't so conservative. I try not to spin my opinions as fact. I try to throw them out there as what they are: the way I feel about things.

FreshFish said:
In other words, government can help people and government can also screw people over. It is foolish not to admit the former, it is dangerously naive to overlook the latter.
EVERYONE I know believes this to be true; I've never met a conservative who actually believed government was totally wasteful and useless and I've never met a liberal who didn't think government was corrupt to some degree. This, as I see it, is a neutral fact. The "fact" in your other post was suggesting that the country is full of people who think government can do no wrong. Which is obviously untrue. (If you had gone with your gut and said that you believe progressives tend to be unduly optimistic, that is a perfectly valid opinion. All I'm saying is, when you have an opinion, state the opinion; don't try to turn it into a fact.)
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

What this country really needs is an invasion from outer space, that would unite us in common purpose!

Three years later, Springfield is a smoldering ruin...

Kang: "The earthlings continue to resent our presence."

Kodos: "You said we'd be greeted as liberators."

Kang: "Don't worry. We still have the people's hearts and minds." (He holds up one heart, one brain).

Kodos: "I don't know. I'm starting to think 'Operation Enduring Occupation' was a bad idea."

Kang: "We had to invade. They were working on weapons of mass disintegration."

Kodos: (aside) "Sure they were."
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

The "fact" in your other post was suggesting that the country is full of people who think government can do no wrong. Which is obviously untrue. (If you had gone with your gut and said that you believe progressives tend to be unduly optimistic, that is a perfectly valid opinion. All I'm saying is, when you have an opinion, state the opinion; don't try to turn it into a fact.)


You mis-state what I said by exaggerating it to the point of caricature. I said that quite a few people seem to be perfectly comfortable ceding a substantial amount of control over their everyday life to government, without seeming to realize that once that power has been ceded, it is difficult to call back.

Many times I will post something here with which I personally disagree because I am curious as to how people will react to it. If anything, their reactions help me develop a better rebuttal.

I already know what I tend to think, it's not that interesting to me merely to regurgitate only that; how does learning occur?

Sometimes I will disagree with someone who might have the same "stance" on an issue as I do if I find that person's reasons unsatisfying: I don't want those reasons circulating to undercut something that can better be buttressed by other arguments.

I must say I am a bit surprised when a person posts here as an engineer yet they glibly ignore inconvenient data, and their proposals contain no backup plan nor any provision for something that might go wrong. I guess a person's politics and professional life don't need to be integrated?

What saddens me more than anything else is the utter certainty everyone seems to have.
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

GA insta-called for Newtie. No surprise there.

VT likely going to Romney.

VA to Romney as well.

OH an absolute dead heat.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

FreshFish said:
We've all heard the list of greatest lies ever told, and most versions of that list have "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you" on that list. Progressives believe government power automatically will be used for good; the rest of us have too much real life experience to the contrary actually to believe that.

You mis-state what I said by exaggerating it to the point of caricature. I said that quite a few people seem to be perfectly comfortable ceding a substantial amount of control over their everyday life to government, without seeming to realize that once that power has been ceded, it is difficult to call back.
Which part of that first quote did I exaggerate to the point of caricature? I quoted you. I didn't exaggerate what you said. I pointed out how ridiculous what you said was. If you meant something different, as the second quote by you is claiming, you should ahve said something different.

And I get playing devil's advocate, but I don't believe that this explains this kind of thing. I'm listening, but all I hear is back-pedaling
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

I know, right? Like during WW2. Thank God the government didn't intervene there.
The difference is that the governments of Japan, Germany, and Italy all declared war on us first. Then we responded, got our butts kicked for a while, got some luck & good commanders, manufactured more tools of war than the other side and eventually won.
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

TN goes to Santorum
OK, too
<s>Romney starting to pull ahead in OH...</s> now Santorum leading OH with 20% in. That would be a good showing for him.

Palin refuses to tell CNN whom she vote for (there are laws against electioneering at polling places in many states, so it may have been an idiotic question. It was CNN, after all) . . .

. . . but then references the need for more debates and historical perspective. You'd have to be small amphibian living under a rock not to be able to decode that one.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

Santorum surging in OH.

Are these mostly rural counties checking in? How many population centers are left that could help Romney?
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

Vegeta, what does the scouter say about Santorum's lead with 31% reporting?
 
Re: 2012 Elections in 3-D!

"Wonderful to be able to go home"

Why is Mitt Romney still in Michigan? Or did he go to Utah?
 
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