2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

This is equally true for pols who tell the truth that taxes have been too low for too long.

It's telling that liberals always base the success of fiscal policy on how high the tax rates are. It matters not a whit what that money is being spent on, only that it's a lot of money, and that the government controls it. We could be running a surplus in budgeting, but if people aren't paying their "fair share" to the government coffers (as determined by Oblamer and his cronies), then tax rates are "too low for too long."
This stupidity is the foundation of a lot of our problems today.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's telling that liberals always base the success of fiscal policy on how high the tax rates are. It matters not a whit what that money is being spent on, only that it's a lot of money, and that the government controls it. We could be running a surplus in budgeting, but if people aren't paying their "fair share" to the government coffers (as determined by Oblamer and his cronies), then tax rates are "too low for too long."
This stupidity is the foundation of a lot of our problems today.

I guess the next time we run a budget surplus, you'll be able to test your theory.

I suspect a lot of the "fair share of taxes" rhetoric right now is aimed at exposing the hypocrisy that Bob mentioned: railing against the debt in one breath, and railing against the closing of tax loopholes in the next.

As for spending - believe the rhetoric if you enjoy believing other peoples' lies. There is zero, zip, nada, no chance that either party will reduce spending, given control of Congress and the presidency. If you're concerned about the debt, root for divided government and a monkey-eventually-typing-Shakespeare type of lucky break on tax policy.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I guess the next time we run a budget surplus, you'll be able to test your theory.

To be honest, I don't really have a theory. I was just trying to find a way to use "Oblamer" in a rant.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's telling that liberals always base the success of fiscal policy on how high the tax rates are. It matters not a whit what that money is being spent on, only that it's a lot of money, and that the government controls it. We could be running a surplus in budgeting, but if people aren't paying their "fair share" to the government coffers (as determined by Oblamer and his cronies), then tax rates are "too low for too long."
This stupidity is the foundation of a lot of our problems today.

There are lots of compelling economic reasons why capital gains rates should be lower than ordinary income rates, which I won't reprise here.

Practically, people have some control over whether they pay capital gains taxes or not. Obama was interviewed (I'm sure it won't be hard to find a link, maybe I'll add it later if I have time) and he was asked about the empirical evidence that indicates that more total revenues are collected from the capital gains tax when rates are low than when rates are high. (for example, if rates are high then people can use those assets as collateral for tax-free loans rather than sell and pay low tax rates). Obama replied that he didn't care if revenues were lower, it was a question of "fairness."

Not sure how starving start-ups of venture capital needed to get their ideas to market is "fair" but that's Barry-One-Note in a nutshell. He can make millions and pay "only" 20% on it yet he wants "fairness" to apply to others.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

If someone would guarantee that there actually would be $10 in cuts, then I'd sign off on it. However, cynical me thinks we'd get the $1 in tax and $1.50 in increased spending while the politicians would claim $8.5 in cuts because they did not spend the $10 they were planning to.

I need a new reality -- off to the golf course tomorrow!!

It's true that it's a lot murkier to try to track spending cuts than it is to track that taxes have been increased. The feds are legendary for their financial tom-foolery to make it look like they are cutting when they aren't. Only in the federal government is a reduction in the increase in spending considered a spending cut. I remember the first time I heard that, as a youngster, and I thought at that time that it was a very bad sign how disingenuous it was.

 

[bronconick]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The other fun one is the "Saved $250 billion over 20 years", except that the budgets between now and 20 years from now have a combined extra $400 billion in spending.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The other fun one is the "Saved $250 billion over 20 years", except that the budgets between now and 20 years from now have a combined extra $400 billion in spending.

Yah, even the deal they were trying to do last year was loaded heavily in the latter years of the deal. Classic political maneuver to try to take credit for cuts that someone else will have to implement and take the heat for.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's telling that liberals always base the success of fiscal policy on how high the tax rates are. It matters not a whit what that money is being spent on, only that it's a lot of money, and that the government controls it. We could be running a surplus in budgeting, but if people aren't paying their "fair share" to the government coffers (as determined by Oblamer and his cronies), then tax rates are "too low for too long."
This stupidity is the foundation of a lot of our problems today.

That's a ridiculous misrepresentation and really lazy. I leave it to you whether it was just cheap pandering or an honest mistake.

You and I can argue all day whether or not to spend money for a given purpose, but once we do spend we must pay for it. The GOP bequeathed a political environment in which people feel entitled not to pay, with the people who have benefited the most being the prime free riders.

The setting up of "the government" as the villain is a sham. "The government" is you and me -- it's no more an enemy or a friend than the electorate. Every time one of the Cons goes on a tirade about "the government" just substitute "the people" in their screed. No wonder they love corporations -- it's democratic process that really offends them.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

To be honest, I don't really have a theory. I was just trying to find a way to use "Oblamer" in a rant.

That's the neo m.o. these days.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's a ridiculous misrepresentation and really lazy. I leave it to you whether it was just cheap pandering or an honest mistake.

It was the first three. I just wanted to use "Oblamer" in a sentence, but I got carried away with the spirit of mean-spiritedness. sorry.
I admit I also wanted to see how many retaliatory insults I could generate by associating your view with "stupidity". (There were four)

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That's the neo m.o. these days.

And "Shrub", funny as it was, wasn't the the lib m.o.?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Why is it not surprising that you patrol that slime breitbart's website looking for news?

Always on point. Always.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The setting up of "the government" as the villain is a sham. "The government" is you and me -- it's no more an enemy or a friend than the electorate. Every time one of the Cons goes on a tirade about "the government" just substitute "the people" in their screed. No wonder they love corporations -- it's democratic process that really offends them.

Respectfully offer a third view: "the government" is actually [at least] two different, distinct entities:
> One is the organization comprised of people who collect paychecks.
> The other is the administrative agency[ies] that helps different constitutencies negotiate conflicting societal priorities on a day to day basis.

Your definition fits the latter quite well; it omits the very serious and real fiscal problems related to the former.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Dems customarily express tax cuts in terms of what a taxpayer (especially the loathsome rich ones) will "get." The only way that formulation accurately describes what happens when taxes are lowered is if you believe all the money belongs to the government. And it is doling out "tax cut checks." In fact, the money belongs to us. Thus, when taxes are lowered, we are getting to keep more of that which is ours.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Dems customarily express tax cuts in terms of what a taxpayer (especially the loathsome rich ones) will "get." The only way that formulation accurately describes what happens when taxes are lowered is if you believe all the money belongs to the government. And it is doling out "tax cut checks." In fact, the money belongs to us. Thus, when taxes are lowered, we are getting to keep more of that which is ours.

It's the same thing. And calling it "our" money is just as much folly as calling it government money. We don't exist without them, and they don't exist without us. Both sides seem to forget that but I'd say the ones on the right forget it the most.

The question isn't who gets what or who pays what or whose money it is. The question is what services are required from the government, how much do those services cost, and how are those services going to be paid for. The right has now successfully starved the government by not paying for the things they voted for from 2000-2007. Even keeping the wars off the books. And now their solution is to cut taxes and scissor the safety net. And that's fine. But until someone actually starts cutting some programs (not fat) actual programs nothing is going to get done. The real lie is that we can continue to pay for all this **** by just slowing the growth. No, no we can't.

Either way its still the same pile of money.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I'm very amused by the circa 1980 rhetoric of Old Pio. It reminded me of Romney's speech last night. "Reagan" this, "Reagan" that. Somebody needs to tell the Mittster (and our righty USCHO friends) that to have been old enough to vote for Ronbo's 1st term you are no younger than 50 years old right now. In short, that was thirty two! years ago. Time to move on people. Everybody who voted for Reagan now qualifies for AARP membership!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's the same thing. And calling it "our" money is just as much folly as calling it government money. We don't exist without them, and they don't exist without us. Both sides seem to forget that but I'd say the ones on the right forget it the most.

The question isn't who gets what or who pays what or whose money it is. The question is what services are required from the government, how much do those services cost, and how are those services going to be paid for. The right has now successfully starved the government by not paying for the things they voted for from 2000-2007. Even keeping the wars off the books. And now their solution is to cut taxes and scissor the safety net. And that's fine. But until someone actually starts cutting some programs (not fat) actual programs nothing is going to get done. The real lie is that we can continue to pay for all this **** by just slowing the growth. No, no we can't.

Either way its still the same pile of money.

Blah. Blah. Blah. Paraphrasing Carville: "It's OUR money, stupid."

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I'm very amused by the circa 1980 rhetoric of Old Pio. It reminded me of Romney's speech last night. "Reagan" this, "Reagan" that. Somebody needs to tell the Mittster (and our righty USCHO friends) that to have been old enough to vote for Ronbo's 1st term you are no younger than 50 years old right now. In short, that was thirty two! years ago. Time to move on people. Everybody who voted for Reagan now qualifies for AARP membership!

So there's a "useby" date on ideas? We should throw out the Gettysburg address and replace it with some self-serving emanations from His Blamelessness?

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It's the same thing. And calling it "our" money is just as much folly as calling it government money. We don't exist without them, and they don't exist without us. Both sides seem to forget that but I'd say the ones on the right forget it the most.

nobody wants to swing away at this one? He's saying we, the people, exist only due to the good grace and favor of the government.

The Revolution was wasted on some people. Tell Washington never mind, bring the boys home.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

nobody wants to swing away at this one? He's saying we, the people, exist only due to the good grace and favor of the government..

I'm not sure that's exactly what is being suggested....our Founders said that governments exist because of the consent of the governed, that is true....however, we also need some system of laws and law enforcement for society to function. People need to have confidence that law enforcement is just and unbiased.

The problem we have is when people use similar words to describe dissimilar concepts.....are "just" and "fair" equivalent? we want everyone to have "equality of opportunity" except we know that through good luck, hard work, whatever, we will always have differential results....how wide a differential do we allow to persist? if it gets "too wide" then do we act like Procrustes and forcibly trim everyone to size? or do we use societal (not governmental) pressure to encourage people?

Andrew Carnegie is a great example of the promise that is available when people combine hard work, good luck, tremendous skill, and advanced social responsibility.