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2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Um..the "not so lazy" in the union need the protection of the union too, otherwise pay and benefits would disappear, and eventually health and safety rules.

Hey, Lt. Toranaga, just admit it, you blew this one and move on. Stop beating a dead horse. You're beginning to sound like Baghdad Bob.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

It's inferred, since you're evidently so in love with the early days of the union movement, which reached its apogee during the New Deal. My comments, while in response to your post, weren't necessarily directed at you. But if you're honest, you'll admit there's an awful lot of union nostalgia stinking up this thread. All this talk about 40 hour weeks, paid vacations, benefits and all the rest certainly do point to contributions made by unions. But they're all decades in the past. The current contributions of unions include "rubber rooms" in NYC where incompetant teachers are housed, because their union deals make it very nearly impossible to fire them. Anyway, you're saying you agree with me?
Nope. Not inferred. I never mentioned the early days of unins, I talked about the days BEFORE unions, which was also well before the New Deal.

And for the record, since teaching is the one union industry that I have experience in, it's actually not that hard to fire a teacher. The reason it doesn't happen terribly often has a lot more to do with administration failing to adequately document incompetence than unions protecting bad employees. If administration has done its job and documented complaints that have been made against a bad teacher, and made sure to be thorough in the reviews that are required to be done, bad teachers can be replaced relatively easily within the system.

And if you had read all of my posts, you would already know that I said that some unions have gotten crazy. And I agree totally with the assertion that the things the unions have gotten us will go away if we lket them go away.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Nope. Not inferred. I never mentioned the early days of unins, I talked about the days BEFORE unions, which was also well before the New Deal.

And for the record, since teaching is the one union industry that I have experience in, it's actually not that hard to fire a teacher. The reason it doesn't happen terribly often has a lot more to do with administration failing to adequately document incompetence than unions protecting bad employees. If administration has done its job and documented complaints that have been made against a bad teacher, and made sure to be thorough in the reviews that are required to be done, bad teachers can be replaced relatively easily within the system.

And if you had read all of my posts, you would already know that I said that some unions have gotten crazy.

Of course, I should have known, "it's all the boss's fault." Got it. Your inference here is that teachers unions have the same interest in weeding out the stupid as school districts do, and that doesn't pass the laugh test. Stupid teachers pay dues too. And money and political clout are what it's all about for unions.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Of course, I should have known, "it's all the boss's fault." Got it.
Please show me where I said that. Documenting the incompetence of an incompetent employee is common sense. Unfortunately, because administrators are working sixty hour weeks just like teachers, it doesn't always happen.

But again you missed the point. You said it is "nearly impossible" to fire a teacher. I told that that that is an untrue statement. And I was right.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Please show me where I said that. Documenting the incompetence of an incompetent employee is common sense. Unfortunately, because administrators are working sixty hour weeks just like teachers, it doesn't always happen.

But again you missed the point. You said it is "nearly impossible" to fire a teacher. I told that that that is an untrue statement. And I was right.

I guess that's why those "rubber rooms" are full of "not so hard to fire as OP said" teachers. Getting full salary and benefits on the backs of the NYC taxpayers. Not all "documentation" is created equal. Please pull somebody else's leg if you're suggesting teachers unions want the procedures by which stupid teachers are fired to be streamlined and to the point and based on objective criteria. That they really want the dumb bells outta there. Just the opposite is true. The unions want to make it as hard to fire a stupid teacher as possible, to keep them in the union, paying those dues, as long as possible. That's their interest in this matter. Not "improving" education for our poor, captive kids.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

I guess that's why those "rubber rooms" are full of "not so hard to fire as OP said" teachers. Getting full salary and benefits on the backs of the NYC taxpayers. Not all "documentation" is created equal. Please pull somebody else's leg if you're suggesting teachers unions want the procedures by which stupid teachers are fired to be streamlined and to the point and based on objective criteria. Just the opposite is true. The unions want to make it as hard to fire a stupid teacher as possible, to keep them in the union, paying those dues, as long as possible. That's their interest in this matter. Not "improving" education for our poor, captive kids.
Ok ;)
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!


My only nephew is a teacher. Although he had the good sense to marry a girl from a wealthy family. As I believe you were, I was fortunate to be educated in one of the big Chicago suburban high schools. And many of my teachers were the finest, most personally influential people of my life. I took many a class with a teacher who had written or co-authored the text we were using. And I believe most teachers, maybe even the overwhelming majority, are competent and dedicated to the proposition of giving our kids the best educations possible. However, the data indicate we're not getting it done. And teachers must share some of the blame.

I read an article several years ago that pointed out the "women's movement" may be in part responsible for a lowering of the overall quality of our teachers. With bright young women having more opportunities than they ever did, the law of unintended consequences kicks in, and they chose something other than teaching. I had several women teachers with PhD's when I was in HS. I'd bet not a single one of them would turn to teaching now. And why should they?

Teachers have a right to unionize if they please (although I wish more states were "right to work"). But we should not lose sight of the fact that teachers unions have the same objectives as all other unions: wages, benefits, working conditions and increasing membership, thus money and influence. All of that may be related to "improving" our schools, but only tangentially, IMO.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

And for the record, since teaching is the one union industry that I have experience in, it's actually not that hard to fire a teacher. The reason it doesn't happen terribly often has a lot more to do with administration failing to adequately document incompetence than unions protecting bad employees. If administration has done its job and documented complaints that have been made against a bad teacher, and made sure to be thorough in the reviews that are required to be done, bad teachers can be replaced relatively easily within the system.

Your personal experience doesn't match OP's preconceived notions, so you must be wrong. :p
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Your personal experience doesn't match OP's preconceived notions, so you must be wrong. :p

What's wrong Lt. Toranaga, didn't find any yankee carriers? Better luck next time. Could it possibly be that different unions in different cities have different rules and procedures in their contracts which result in differing degrees of ease by which a stupid teacher can be fired? I guess not.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

My only nephew is a teacher. Although he had the good sense to marry a girl from a wealthy family. As I believe you were, I was fortunate to be educated in one of the big Chicago suburban high schools. And many of my teachers were the finest, most personally influential people of my life. I took many a class with a teacher who had written or co-authored the text we were using. And I believe most teachers, maybe even the overwhelming majority, are competent and dedicated to the proposition of giving our kids the best educations possible. However, the data indicate we're not getting it done.

I read an article several years ago that pointed out the "women's movement" may be in part responsible for a lowering of the overall quality of our teachers. With bright young women having more opportunities than they ever did, the law of unintended consequences kicks in, and they chose something other than teaching. I had several women teachers with PhD's when I was in HS. I'd bet not a single one of them would turn to teaching now. And why should they?
There are many factors that add up to a failing educational system. I think that a LOT of those factors come in ahead of teacher's unions on that list. And a lot of them are unintended consequences such as the one you brought up. The fact is, eliminating unions is not going to fix the system. It probably won't even make a significant improvement and I believe that it might very well hurt the system. And like you said, why should good people turn to teaching? Maybe as a society, we should try to make teaching an attractive field rather than villifying the entire profession, which a LOT of people do. (For the record, I am NOT referring to Old Pio or anyone else on the board specifically here, just a trend in our country)

And as far as unions go overall, I still believe that all things considered they do more good than harm. The bad directly affects relatively few of us, but the good indirectly affects everyone. At least that's how I feel about it.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

There are many factors that add up to a failing educational system. I think that a LOT of those factors come in ahead of teacher's unions on that list. And a lot of them are unintended consequences such as the one you brought up. The fact is, eliminating unions is not going to fix the system. It probably won't even make a significant improvement and I believe that it might very well hurt the system. And like you said, why should good people turn to teaching? Maybe as a society, we should try to make teaching an attractive field rather than villifying the entire profession, which a LOT of people do. (For the record, I am NOT referring to Old Pio or anyone else on the board specifically here, just a trend in our country)

And as far as unions go overall, I still believe that all things considered they do more good than harm. The bad directly affects relatively few of us, but the good indirectly affects everyone. At least that's how I feel about it.

I think we have major areas of agreement there. We are committing a hugely expensive disservice to hundreds of thousands of kids who really need good educations to compete in today's world. Look at the scandal in Atlanta. My hunch is that's just the tip of the ice berg. And maybe standardized tests aren't the best way to gauge student progress. Okay, then let's find what is and implement that. My nephew tells me of kids whose only reason for being in school is to play basketball (and he coaches JV!). So does he take the hardline on classroom attendance and boot them off the team for absences, or does he employ a more flexible standard? These and dozens of other quandries are faced in classrooms around the country every day. Kids come to class so lacking in basic skills or motivation to learn, Ralph Bunche couldn't make much progress with them.

In Seattle a few years ago a high ranking Microsoft executive was volunteering to teach in an inner city school. One of his students referred to someone or something as being "so gay." The guy asked the kid what he'd think if somebody referred to him by the N-word ( mistake, certainly). This created the customary stink with the customary "community spokesmen" expressing the customary "outrage" at the guy's choice of words. He had to go, they said. And he did. Thus a powerhouse human resource was denied to kids who desperately needed exposure to a successful businessman, or a successful anybody. It simply wouldn't have occurred to these "community spokesmen" to demand that the guy not use the word again, give him a little sensitivity training, and let him resume his good volunteer work. "Community spokesmen" diminishing in a measurable way the education their kids were receiving. Sort of like that guy in the DC administration a few years ago who got into trouble up to his lips for using the word "niggardly," which has nothing whatsoever to do with race. But it "sounded" racist and stupid people forced him to resign, although he was later given another job after this hilarious bit of PC made the DC administration the laughing stock of the nation, again.

A few years ago standout NFL player Dexter Manley of the Redskins tearfully testified before congress that he was illiterate. He'd made it through grade school, middle school, high school and four years of football at Iowa State without learning how to read. Marva Collins of Chicago's famed West Side Prep wound up teaching a basketball player from Creighton how to read. Incidentally, teachers unions in Chicago did everything in their power to downplay and diminish her many academic accomplishments, but that's another story.

So there are lots of factors which contribute to a failing education system. And as you say, unionized teachers aren't necessarily the biggest factor. However, I believe the unions and their bosses are a different matter altogether. I once worked with a pro-union reporter at a Houston radio station who, when reporting from Austin, would always refer to "teacher groups" rather than "teacher unions." I pointed out that there were doubtless teacher groups interested in origami or square dancing who took no position on wage and hour negotiations. Use of the word "union" would clearly establish who he was talking about in the minds of our listeners. But, no, they were teacher "groups." The largest of these "groups," the National Education Association, in my view covers up its purpose with that title. After all, without knowing for sure, an enterprise calling itself the NEA could easily be mistaken for an ad hoc group of citizens trying to reform our education system. And not a powerful union seeking to improve wages, benefits and working conditions for its members. Which, as I have previously noted, is not directly related to improving the education our kids get.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

A couple thoughts on education:

- I don't know that we're 'failing' at education, but we certainly could do alot better
- Much of that underperformance is outside the education decision making and is due to societal distractions...much of it due to technology. It would be there under any form of free society educational system.
- Education needs to remain the country's top long term priority. It is the battlefield that matters.
- Over compensation is a critical piece of that. Until we have a better solution, unions help fill that role.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

- Education needs to remain the country's top long term priority. It is the battlefield that matters.

The problem is way too many people think this. It's shouldn't be the country's top priority. It should be PARENTS top priority. It not the system that is failing kids as much as it is parents. Everything else is just excuses. If a person is supposedly adult enough to have a child then they have the obligation to place that child's welfare at the top and that includes education. Sadly, way too many parents place their child's welfare after their job, car, house, entertainment, etc.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Cain's surge has been interesting. Question is whether it will last.

I think Cain is a mistake for conservatives to back if they're about the win. As with sports, sometimes its about the matchup. Romney just has a better chance to beat Obama than Cain IMO.

The problem is way too many people think this. It's shouldn't be the country's top priority. It should be PARENTS top priority.

Absolutely agree it should be parents top priority.

But what should be a higher long term priority for the country than education?
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

I think Cain is a mistake for conservatives to back if they're about the win. As with sports, sometimes its about the matchup. Romney just has a better chance to beat Obama than Cain IMO.

Remember when the GOP at the convention had the flip-flops? Remember when they'd chant "flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop" over and over again?

Romney makes John Kerry look like the most steadfast person in government.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Romney is really a gift to the WH, though, since he is the hood ornament for the GOP as the party of the banksters. By all rights, somebody should be able to run a successful anti-economic elites insurgency against Obama-Geithner-Summers that's strongly populist. But Romney ruins that, since he makes Obama look like a man of the people.

Perry could espouse all of Romney's current positions and sweep the Republican base. It really says something that he's such an epic fail that even people who fell for Palin can see through him. So they're left with Cain as a placeholder until a competent campaigner/fundraiser not named Romney comes along. But who's that going to be? Dick Cheney is not lurching through that door.

I'll bet Bob McDonnell regrets he didn't run. And I'll bet Jeb Bush goes to bed every night cursing his idiot brother.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Absolutely agree it should be parents top priority.

But what should be a higher long term priority for the country than education?

Off the top of my head....National security (the real kind, not the BS that is was/currently being done), ensuring an equal opportunity for everyone, protecting civil liberties. I suppose I could come up with more but I don't feel like it. My point more specifically is that the Government can throw all of the money it has (or can borrow) at education and it's not going to make a difference until parents take responsibility for their children and their education.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

Off the top of my head....National security (the real kind, not the BS that is was/currently being done), ensuring an equal opportunity for everyone, protecting civil liberties. I suppose I could come up with more but I don't feel like it. My point more specifically is that the Government can throw all of the money it has (or can borrow) at education and it's not going to make a difference until parents take responsibility for their children and their education.
It's not either/or, though. It's like any other activity we want to encourage, government can help or it can neglect it. I don't think government particularly neglects education currently, but as with other minarchist tropes, the "IF private responsibility THEN no public role" formula isn't logic, it's just ideology.
 
Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

The obvious way to run against the House GOP freshmen:


Take every "you can't regulate the financial sector, that's TEHSOCIALISM!!!111!" bill and throw it right back at them.

Is it possible somebody at the DCCC actually knows something about campaigning? That would be news.
 
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Re: 2012 Elections: Corndogs for everyone!

It's not either/or, though. It's like any other activity we want to encourage, government can help or it can neglect it. I don't think government particularly neglects education currently, but as with other minarchist tropes, the "IF private responsibility THEN no public role" formula isn't logic, it's just ideology.

I didn't say it was an either/or situation. I thought it was obvious that I was saying it was a waste to make it the country's top priority without parents taking responsibility. I guess you somehow extrapolated that into me thinking the Government shouldn't spend any money on education. Maybe you should spend less time trying to impress us with fancy wording like "minarchist tropes", and more time reading what is actually written. :rolleyes:
 
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